Creativity, Data, and the Fight for Better Advertising with FIG

Mark: What our tool does, and I wish there was more tools out there doing it, is increasing effectiveness versus efficiencies.

Chris: Welcome to We Built This Brand, where we pull back the curtain on the people, the ideas, and the sometimes challenging process of building something that matters. Today, I'm joined by two leaders from Fig, the independent New York agency known as storytellers for the information age.

I get to talk with Mark Figliulo, the founder, as well as Amber Higgins, their chief strategy officer, and we get to talk about how Fig reinvented Publix with the Make Things Special story, why one chapter was entirely made by hand with no AI, and how data and creativity actually work together. So without further ado, here's my conversation with Mark and Amber from Fig

Well, Mark, Amber, welcome to We Built This Brand. It's great to have y'all on today.

Amber : Thanks for having us. Thanks for having us.

Chris: I'm excited to talk to you all about the work you are doing at Fig, and just to dig into how all that got started. So, generally, I have one guest at a time. It's always fun to have an extra in the mix.

So, um, happy to have both of you here. When I start, I like to talk about where your origins are. So like w- how did you all get to the place where Fig was founded, and how did you all find your way to Fig? Um, so Mark, I know you're the founder, so, so talk to me about how, how Fig got its start.

Mark: Uh, well, I grew up in the, you know, as a creative in the creative industry, so I've been doing this for, you know, decades now.

And it got to a point where I was trying to figure out... I was at Chiat Day as the chief creative officer. I was trying to figure out, all right, what's next? And I, when I, I did all the interviews that people do, I was a global creative director by then, and I was shocked at how many all, you know, the big agencies, how many were identical.

They were, they just weren't solving big problems from my point of view. They were just getting by and trying to get to the next day. And that's when I realized, well, if, if I, I either have to shut up and, you know, get in line or I have to start my own thing. And that's what I did, and it was the best decision of my career.

So I'm thrilled, and I got to meet Amber, so...

Amber : Eventually. Eventually. 13 years in, but yes.

Chris: Nice. So Amber, what's your, what's your story? How did you start and how'd you find Fig?

Amber : Yeah. I, I've had a really fun time in this crazy business called marketing. Um, I have had the unique privilege of sitting in what I would say are all three seats.

So I have been a client, I have been a consultant, and I have worked for some of the best creative agencies in the world. Um, and I think having such a well-rounded perspective on how hard this all really is, it should be fun and it should be easy, but boy, is it hard. Uh, and, and I, I'm thrilled. What brought me to Fig was story data and Mark, uh, and the way he thinks about creative and the way he really wants to champion creativity in a way that I think the independents are certainly bringing back, um, and the others have, you know, solely lost over time.

So I, I, for me, it was that. It was, he doesn't talk about creative the way everybody else does, but he does the creative I've done with everybody else, so I know its form. Um, but I think it's really interesting to have a creative person say, "We don't, we aren't data. Creative isn't data, and therefore we're losing, 'cause we're not even in the conversations."

Tell me more

Mark: about that. Back in 2017, we started just really tagging all our creative and trying to understand it. Like, hey, this story's about this, this story's about that. You know, deconstructing creative. It was a very manual process. We didn't, we were just doing it to learn. But then as we did it and everyone kind of got into it, uh, it became a bigger thing, and it, the data started piling up in how we decode creative assets.

And then we got to a point where, hey, why don't we automate this? So we, we built an interface, and we started, uh, collecting more and more data. It, it started being a real data set of creative data. And then just recently... So years went by, and we just kept on automating it, and all of our clients started using it.

It's a really helpful tool to understand how creative works, how to make better decisions, that kind of thing. All of our clients use it. And then about a year ago, we, we brought on Richard Bush, who's our CTO, and he's taken it to the next level. So StoryData's just getting bigger and bigger and better and better.

So it's becoming a really powerful tool that, uh, in the coming months you're gonna be hearing more and more about.

Chris: That's exciting. So tell me, like, why is it StoryData? I mean, I, I've got some inference f- here, but I'd love to know, like, why that name.

Amber : Yeah, I'll take it. Um, 'cause stories are really information.

Right? Like, they are told in an entertaining way, sometimes with humor to be more persuasive, sometimes really emotional, so we remember them. Um, but they really sort of are information. Um, and stories are everything, right? Like we say, you can calm a child and overthrow a government with a story. Name something else that can do that.

They're pretty incredible things. Um, and we're creative at, at our hearts and our souls and with our hands, so stories are our medium, if you will.

Mark: I would just jump in, 'cause sometimes people hear data, even in the context of creative, and think we're building robots and stuff. It's really, how is creative gonna keep up in today's world?

We all know AI and all that stuff, but how are we gonna interface with the new world? 'Cause if we don't, as creative people, people who really care about stories, if we don't, the algorithms and the engineers behind them will do it, and th- I think that's very dangerous. They don't really understand the magic of storytelling, uh, or the intuitive pro- process.

So we're doing it, and importantly, our systems leave a lot of room for creatives. It doesn't say this is good or bad. It says, "Hey, this one has a probability of working better." And the creatives and the planners and everybody work with it, not for it, and it's a huge distinction. So we're still committed to creative like we love, like we have loved forever, but it is changing, and we have to keep up.

Otherwise, it's gonna change for the worse.

Amber : That's one thing I would just add, is for me, it's taking a lot of the... You know, you've heard creative agencies and creative people especially say, "Just trust me." Like, "I've been doing this for so long, I just, I know what will work or what won't work." And having something where you can show a client What it will look like or what it could be in the context of what other competitors are doing, what other brands you might admire are doing, takes a lot of the subjectivity out of it, right?

It, it isn't a creative selfish person telling you to do the thing that feels scary because it'd be great for their book. There's a real reason for it, you know?

Chris: I, I, I chuckle at that 'cause I was just at a conference with a bunch of book writers and folks like that, so- ... I know what you mean. Um, but yeah, trust me, bro, is not really a good-

Amber : Not a good business model.

Mark: It's how we've been running, though. It really is. And w- well, well, we go into a room, the same room, same people, but we, we say, "Here's our big idea. We love it, and here's why." And it just helps clients get a, a little bit more context, so how to be braver, how to do the, the things that you're supposed to do 'cause they can see it better.

They can see it more like a creative person.

Chris: And so just so I understand this properly, like, you're ... This information that you have, it's, I'm assume, some hard data that you're able to then tell in a story-like format that helps them understand the reason for it being effective. Is that, is that a fair way to put it?

Mark: Yeah, it's a good question. Like, I want to be clear that, you know, we use AI like everyone does, but we started, like I said, in 2017. This is a data set primarily. How we use it, it, we use it a lot of different ways, but I do think data is becoming more and more important. It's what AI machines could read and, you know, work with.

If you don't have them, and we're all using the same AI programs, we're all gonna be thinking the same way. So when w- we approach it the same way. We use Claude and everything else, but we u- use it with our data set, and it's a world apart a- and it's consistent. So when we ask it a question, we get the same answer every time, uh, versus, you know, one time you do this, and then you get another answer the next day.

Chris: I've learned with Co- Claude and a lot of these AI tools that context is king, especially with if you're using Claude. Like, the more context you feed it, the better answers you're gonna get back, and it really is a matter of what you put into it, so that makes sense.

Mark: Yeah, and the other thing, when you think about that, and when you think about, okay, data's really important, what data do you think Claude and all the, uh, programs are using?

They're using consumer data. They're using media data. They're using financial data. No creative data is out there. So that's, when I say it's a real problem in our industry, that's what I'm talking about. We have to supply these machines with creative data, and that's what we're up to.

Amber : And I think the one thing that we can maybe say with words and you can imagine is we compare our creative data with media data.

And why that's really important in today's world is because what you get served, and what I get served, and what Mark gets served are fundamentally different things. So sometimes our auditing capabilities are just really biased, whether we're the CMO or we're, you know, an agency partner. So you need a way of being able to see what, what competitors actually did so that you can see what might be driving success or challenges or failures even, um, and having...

Like, machines are good at that. This is actually a really good part to give to the machine. Um, and we can illustrate it, and more times than not, what you get is you have a lot of assets. You're not spending that much against them. And then what you get to talk about is this is why best practices for things like social platforms and creator content are actually very misleading and leading to a ton of wallpaper.

Chris: Yes.

Amber : Right?

Chris: That's, that's the best way I can respond to that one. You're, you're right. That, that makes, I mean, but, but all that makes sense. Like, I, I have learned even within our own business that there's a lot of information out there. Like, we- we're in podcast production, so, like, there's a lot of stats out there, but knowing what to choose, how to analyze it, how to understand it, like, it takes part experience and context, and then it also takes understanding what that information's about and that data to help people make good decisions for how to grow a show.

So, you know, being able to, like, we've, we've developed some tools and things like that similarly to, I mean, not in any way identical to what you all are doing, but, you know, in a similar fashion, like in following that same approach. So I'm very much tracking with this. That's cool.

Mark: Yeah. One la- last thing I'd say about the industry right now, it's pointing to, uh, AI for production, and we do that like everybody does, but it's, it's not a big part of what we do.

But the reason they're doing that is to be more efficient, to reduce costs on creative production. I don't think that's a great thing. Sometimes it is, but sometimes it's not. And what our tool does, and I wish there was more tools out there doing it, is increasing effectiveness versus efficiencies. So, and again, that's something that a creative agency would believe in more than a media agency, for instance.

So the, the, the battle's out there. We're, we're, we're coming for it. So it, w- it, it's, I think it's the big issue of our industry right now.

Chris: I think that's fair, 'cause, yeah, you have people who aren't using context and are just asking AI for an answer on something, and they're getting, you know, some article written 20 years ago or 15 years ago on the internet, and it's pulling it in, and may not be good advice.

Amber : Yeah, exactly that. Or you've seen trends in our business, right, where some, some kind of marketing gets really popular, right? Whether it was purpose marketing, you know, thank God that's gone. When, you know, it was entertainment's the new brand, right? Creation, creation, creator, creator, all the things, right, related.

It, and it, it isn't true. All of those could be effective Um, so we need to, we need more permission for, uh, yeah, creative representation in all these conversations.

Chris: Absolutely. So Mark, let's go back a little bit. You talked about founding Fig. Um, where did the name come from, and what was, what were those early years like?

Like, what were some of your big challenges when you started the agency?

Mark: All good questions. So it's called Fig, uh, well, t- I'll tell you the story. We used to be called Filio & Partners, 'cause we threw the name together in 10 seconds, 'cause our first client was Sprint, and we had the whole thing. Uh, so it was a very unusual start.

It was a very big client, so we had no... And then we went from zero to 60. And when I say we, really importantly, uh, Judith Carr Rodriguez is the CEO of Fig, and she was my partner. Three days in, I met her, and, uh, it's been great. We're like two coats of paint. Uh, and Richard Tan is our CFO, and he's another partner, along with Amber.

So the four of us run Fig. So it, we got, we got lucky right off the bat, and then I got even luckier finding Judith and Richard, because without them I don't think we'd be in business. Like, I just didn't have enough bandwidth to know what the hell to do. I knew how to put a creative campaign together, but that was about it.

And the three of us combined, we, we had a diverse approach to the business, 'cause Judith came from a digital background. So we, we knew how to triangulate everything, and I think that was our early success. And then it, it took off from there and it was really a fun ride. I had to m- be honest with you. And it, it went up, and there's times it went down, and e- even the downsides, you feel it, so you know, it's better than when you're at a big agency, you don't feel much at all.

Like, y- all the bumps are smoothed out for you. When you have your own agency or a small agency, you feel the bumps, but that's, that's part of the joy, I think. And then s- so the highs are really high. Like right now, we're on a high

Chris: That's great. Yeah, it's, it's fun when you're in those seasons of growth and expansion, and opportunities are coming your way.

That's, that's awesome to be in.

Mark: I realize I didn't answer your question, though. So it was called Figliulo & Partners. We quickly realized nobody could say my name, 'cause it's a hard one. F-I-G-L-I-U-L-O. Uh, so I grew up with the nickname Fig, and that's what we did. And importantly, we, at that point, this is about two years, three years in, we turn, we turn it into Fig the Fruit.

That's our identity, our graphics, and that was intentional. It, it wasn't about me so much. I got it off the ground with my name a little bit, but it, the, this quickly became much more than me. So I think it's that more honest approach to call it something other than myself. But there's a connection to the name.

Chris: Now that the fig is the actual fruit, the fig, is a part of your brand, like, how, how has that evolved? Because I assume the brand messaging probably evolves once you adapt something like, you know, a fruit as part of your brand.

Mark: It adapted, like I said, w- it didn't mean me, and I was, you know, I'll, I'll c- say a traditional, you know, creative director from the brand world and all that.

And with our, the people we hired, like Judith and Amber and everybody, came from very diverse backgrounds. So all of a sudden it wasn't about, like I said, me or my background. It was about all of us, and we were creating something very different and very modern, I think. Uh, and the, the, the name helped us do that It didn't, uh, define us too much

Chris: And then, I mean, finding Sprint as an early customer, that's, that's always, you know, a great way to get a business started, uh Not bad,

Mark: not bad.

Chris: How, how nerve-wracking was that?

Mark: It was crazy. And like, you know, most of this business is, it was luck. Like, I knew the right people from the past, and, uh, you know, one friend connected me to another, and all of a sudden I was in a room with the CEO of Sprint and pitched him an idea, and he loved it. And away we went.

It w- it was fantastic. So and then, you know, a couple years in, we realized Sprint, at that point in time, were, was burning through agencies, and we knew, okay, we have to start our own agency before... This is our first and only client. And we, uh, started pitching. We, we, uh, won Virgin Atlantic and Spotify, and it, it was just a quick...

'Cause we had that founding client, we had a reputation immediately, so other brands trusted us a little bit more. So it, it quickly, uh, it just took off.

Chris: That brand recognition is key when you're early, getting somebody that you can point back to and share and say, "We've worked with Sprint." I mean, everybody knows who Sprint is, or well, I guess used to.

They're not-

Mark: Yeah, exactly.

Chris: Used to. You know, they're not around anymore. I, I started my career in telecom, so I'm very familiar with Sprint and all that. Um-

Amber : Same ...

Chris: nice, nice. Verizon or?

Amber : Verizon, and brought Boost Mobile to the US and sold them to Sprint.

Chris: That is incredible. My story is not that cool. I was working for Windstream Communications, so.

Amber : It's all learning.

Chris: Oh, it was a blast. Yeah. It was, um-

Amber : Telecom's fun ...

Chris: but yeah, that's, that is a great place to be. And then you- you've grown quite a bit since then, and I know one of the things we wanted to talk about today is one of your recent, um, campaigns that you all have done with Publix. I believe the, the go-to-market plan was called Make Things Special, or the, the strategy was.

So tell me, tell, just tell me more about that. How did that start? How did that come to be?

Amber : You said it, Mark, when you were answering the last question. It's, it's relationships and luck, um, is the foundation of most great things that are happening in this business. Um, and for us, it was the relationship. I mean, it was love at first sight in both directions.

It was the perfect first date. Um, we really wanted what they wanted, um, and appreciated who they were as a brand, um, and took the task very much to heart not to change something that's been in business for so long, but breathe new life into it, um, and really learn who they were and how they got here. And we talk about it a lot, about, like, sort of crafting the next chapter of a brand's story.

We're very respectful of the fact that brands have been around before us, and they'll probably be around after they work with us, and so we want to give k- give it great care while we have it. And for Publix, it was that. Make Things Special was an elevated moment for them off of a line that they had had for, for some time, which was, "Where shopping is a pleasure."

Um, and they'd lived it and breathed it and built, built themselves to be quite large and quite successful off of it.

Mark: Yeah, it was the founder's line, right? And he, he wrote it himself like, I don't know, 100 years ago or whatever it was.

Amber : Yeah. But 100 years ago, the grocery market looked a lot different than it does now, especially with the Whole Foods of the world and all the, you know, Trader Joe's having a second coming.

Um, there's like quite, quite a bit more going on in the world than there was when George started it all. But yeah, we really honored the, the lineage and the history, giving it, like, I would say probably, like, another breath. Um, hopefully that lasts for some time, 'cause boy, are they fun to work with.

Chris: How challenging was that, changing that tagline from where shopping is a pleasure to make things special?

Mark: Yeah, I wanna be clear, we ke- we've kept, uh, where shopping is a pleasure. I don't think... Once you have a, a brand asset that strong, you shouldn't just chuck it out. What we did is we said, "Okay, how could it be more than a line? How could it be your strategy, your positioning?" And so we really deconstructed that idea, and if you think about shopping being a pleasure, it's like everyday stuff made special somehow.

And that really is how they approach, you know, their service is like, every little thing, just elevate it, um, a little bit and make, make it special. So they're very good at making the, the things they do, the service and the products very special. We said, "Why don't you invite your customers to do the same?

Make other people feel special around the Christm- Christmas time, for instance." Um, and you know, you, you do that with preparing food for people that you buy at Publix, that kind of stuff. So it just, all of a sudden it took what was already there, like Amber said, it's, this is just the next chapter. So we took what's already there, and we just broadened it, and so everybody in the company could hold onto it and give it new meaning.

Amber : The reception, because we were so, uh, respectful of what we feel they were still doing right and where there was room to improve it, I've never had, and I've been in this business a really long time, I've never had such wide reception on first view, right? Oftentimes, you know, you might get a light pause in the room, like, "We appreciate that, thank you," and then the, you know, comments and feedback start pouring in.

Um, but this was, not only did we get it, like it made sense and we understood the shift, but man, that's exactly what we need to do. And that was coming from business line owners, you know, heads of media, people. The really special thing about Publix that maybe is worth knowing is everyone's been there a real long time.

Um, and people in their highest ranks there started as baggers So they grew up in this business. There is such an immense amount of respect and appreciation for, like Mark said, all the details. Um, so the line was part of it, but I would also argue that the way we helped them understand how they would go to market through that lens, so make things special as a core, core commitment and a core promise.

Now, now tiering, um, what they would advertise against three really specific jobs to be done, for them reorganized the way that they market. And that, I think, was as surprising to them to understand and want as it was for us to, you know, wrestle to the ground and write and craft. Um, and it has been a, a, an organizing, um, pillar for them as they go through quite a bit of transformation, which any business still operating today and being successful in these markets is having to do.

Chris: Yeah. So you mentioned three very specific things. What, what are those?

Amber : So one was exactly what Mark was touching on, which is you have this incredible core value, and people have it too. So the thing that Publix shares in common with its, um, customers is that making someone else feel special means something to them, right?

It's, it's... There's a people who instinctively seek to delight others, and they use food in the gesture of that. Um, and so it works for Publix, why their, um, employees are there, why, why... What they wanna do for a customer every day, what a store manager wants to represent, and it works for people. So we called it a, you know, an establishing a shared value Um, and really making sure that people understood that, because Publix does cost more.

It is a, it's a premium-positioned product, which is not easy to do in food these days, as we are all suffering the price of bacon. Uh, and so shared, uh, shared value is one. The second was not to take for granted that as they grew into new markets, which they did not have 100 years of history established in, we really needed to make our difference tangible.

So we needed to make sure that people understood, if I said, "Why Publix?" They could list off reasons. And so we said, "Don't underestimate for the markets that you've been in, that people know this. You have to communicate it. You actually have to talk about it," because we're trying to expand into new markets.

And even in our existing markets, there are a lot of new people to those markets, right? 'Cause they're, they're South, Southeast, and there's a lot of trend- people moving that way. And then the last one was they're a grocery store. This is a daily business, one in real time, right? It is, will you turn left into my parking lot or right into Trader Joe's?

And so we have trigger, more time-sensitive reasons to visit. Um, and those core pillars became why Make Things Special was the focus, how we were going to deliver it, and how we were gonna reorient all of their marketing endeavor against it, and it's been really helpful.

Chris: That's a big challenge.

Amber : Yeah.

Chris: You're not just changing a brand title, you're actually, in, in a way, enabling some organizational change and some shifts in mindset to really align with that brand.

It's not just a, a picture or an ad campaign at that point, and it's very deep.

Amber : Yeah. It's, it was structural. Well, well, well observed, for sure.

Chris: Well, that's cool. So with this, I know there were three, I think three different ad campaigns that you all built. Um, I believe they were Merry Birthday, Best Friends, and Our Pleasure.

Um, so would love to, love to dig into those a little bit. And how does, you know, one bre- brand story, you know, stretch into these three different, um, campaigns and make them feel unique? Want to launch a podcast without the hassle? HumblePod makes podcasting easy. From concept to launch, we'll help you create a professional, engaging show.

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Mark: Yeah, it's a good question. The, uh, uh, as an example, our very first assignment was, uh, a Christmas campaign, which publicly I, I have to, uh, give a shout-out to them that Mark, our client, uh, built a really great brand with communications over time. They were telling good stories, including Christmas stories.

He just wanted to upgrade it again, and that- that's when we came in. Amber and I and our-- the team built this, this idea of make things special. So the first story we told was Christmas, and we talked about it in context of, well, who doesn't feel special? And, uh, one of the creatives came up with a great- it was, his name is Tom and Ke- Tom and Keegan are the creative team behind this.

Tom just came up with this insight of like, well, there's a lot of people born on or near Christmas that just lose their birthday because of it. You know, Christmas, you know, dominates their birthday. And we thought that was huge. So we worked on various stories, and we came up with one where it was a little girl who was kind of pissed off at Santa.

She was like, "I've had enough. Uh, I, I just, I basically, I want a birthday for Christmas." And we show Santa stopping his sleigh going towards a Publix, and he stops it. Publix gets not only all the stuff for birthday, but a special cake that says Merry Birthday, and that's the big reveal at the end. And importantly, we were able to, that cake that, uh, we designed with Publix together, we sold at the stores, and it was a huge success.

So it wasn't just the film, it was a whole activation surrounding it, and it got on the news and all this stuff 'cause we were doing something special for people who needed something a little special that day.

Chris: Well, I thank you for that campaign. My birthday is December 13th.

Mark: There you go.

Chris: My uncle's is December 21st, 24th, and my father-in-law's is December 26th, and my sister-in-law's December 14th.

So I have a lot of December .

Amber : That we will send you a cake .

Chris: Yes. Yeah, that, that story resonates really well with me. So yes, we'll have to.

Amber : The really treasured moment for me was the CEO then also went with his wife to the local hospital on Christmas Day and delivered cakes to all the new moms. I love that

Chris: so much.

Amber : Yeah. That's awesome. It was really great. They really embraced it. To your point, what a treasured moment to have something that we make, right, which is commercial in nature, um, turn into something so much bigger than that. Those are, those are the moments, you know, you hope for in your career . Um, and we were lucky to do that with them.

And the thing to know about it too is they own Christmas. If you fly to Florida to go see them, and you get in any cab or, you know, Uber, and they say, "Oh, we're taking you to Publix." Oh, they're Christmas spots. That's, the whole town talks about it. It's like, well, I shouldn't say town. The whole s- state talks about it

So it is not an easy bar to elevate is all I will say.

Mark: And that was directed by Seb Edwards, just for the record. And that's another thing we, I do think the agency brought to Publix is, uh, a quality of production Uh, 'cause it, we, we, when we first met them, we all looked at the very best Christmas ads done around the world, and one thing they had in common was they're longer than the average commercial, and they're very high production value.

So we were committed to that, and Seb Edwards a great example. The Best Friends commercial you're talking about, that was, uh, directed by Mark Malloy, who's just A+ director. And, um, Miles Jay is, uh, for the third thing we'll talk about, he's the director there, and each of them are in top, at the top of their game.

So it's an important element of it.

Chris: Absolutely. We've had, had the good, um, fortune to talk to, um, the folks at Breakwater Studios. I don't know if you're familiar with their work. But yeah, that, that whole industry, like I, I love it when, when you see people in commercial work that are really good at what they do, because it shows.

And being able to work with them and find ways to get them involved in projects, I, I just think when you can do it is... I, I know you know this, but it's worth every penny and every bit of it. Oh,

Mark: absolutely. Absolutely.

Chris: So the Merry Birthday campaign, that's awesome, and then Best Friends. Tell me, tell me what the Best Friends campaign was about.

Amber : There's a connection there. Yeah, and then I'll let you, I'll let you do this one. There's a connection because, so they have this stellar reputation for Christmas. Um, and the, and our observation was, you need ano- we need another Christmas. We need another moment in time where we go that big, and we really start to establish our presence.

So strategically, it started with strategy. It started with wh- where is this other moment where we can show up, and it makes sense for business reasons, and what is our, what is our way in? And we found, um, a pretty interesting idea around how communities, they're a community grocery store, they grew up, you know, one, one town at a time.

How do communities show affection and, and engage? And a lot of community efforts are around food. Right? So you have the neighbor moves in, you make, you make something and you take it over, right? Potlucks galore. You start adding cultural nuance to that. Different groups of people, different backgrounds.

Food is at the center of all of that. Um, summer, winter, every time of year. So, um, it started with this idea of we have the right to talk about community engagement and, and community, uh, com- community comes together around, around food, and we sell food, and we're a community grocery store. So, uh, that's the strategy bit of it anyway.

Mark: Yeah, and that's where we take over and we say, "Okay, community, neighborhood, uh, who, who needs to feel special?" Well, what if it was a group of dogs? And who do they wanna make feel special? And it turns out they wanted to make the mailman feel special because they, it was, there's some miscommunication, and they found out that the mailman is leaving the block because they've been up to bad things with them.

And that, that was the story. So it starts off with a, a community center, and it's all filled with dogs, and we did it all with puppetry, like old st- old-fashioned puppetry. Uh, and it, they look amazing. It's really, Mark Malloy did a fantastic job with the craftsmanship. And it starts off with these dogs having a meeting, and they're saying, "What are we gonna do about Bob?"

Bob being the mailman. Uh, "He's, he's leaving the block, and it's our fault." And they're like, "Well, what do we do?" And then we do a series of cutbacks to them biting his leg and peeing on his leg and eating his lunch and all this stuff. And they're, they're like, "Now what? How do we make him stay?" And the, one of them says, "I got it."

And he goes, "We're gonna bake." And so they go to Publix, y- you see them with the bags and everything. They dump it out, and they're in the kitchen of one of the owners, and they just go to town trying to figure out how to make a pie. Not very good at it first. They learn it, and then you see them delivering the pie to the mailman.

And, and on the pie it says, "Stay." And then he's like, "Oh, how could I leave you guys?" And, uh That's the story. So it's great. It's the same thing, is they're trying to make someone feel better, and they use food to do it. Um, so it's pretty straight story, but it's really well told because of the craftsmanship.

Chris: So this was handcrafted, like no AI-generated content,

Mark: just- N- none at all, yeah. The m- a touch up at the end, but um, each, each dog, we had I think a total of nine dogs, and each of them had three puppeteers each. So it was a significant production, uh, but it was fantastic. They, they did a good job.

Chris: So from that one, I mean, you then move on to the Our Pleasure campaign, and let's, let's talk a little bit about that as well.

What, what was really the, the focus there?

Amber : This one is what I was touching on earlier around, like, the pillars. It's making our difference tangible for people. Um, so this is now Publix's chance to say to its customers what it's doing to make their time with us special. So sometimes those can be really specific human moments.

Like, I might remember you don't like tomatoes on your sandwich because I know you come in on Tuesdays, and you always get the same one. It could be a long-standing tradition where they walk bags to cars for people who need a little extra help. Um, so the way they bag the groceries, which is my number one complaint about Trader Joe's, um, is they do not throw your fruit in the bottom of the bag and bruise it after you've spent, you know, gobs of time making sure that you got a good one.

Every ounce of the store, um, the way they, you know, reorder things on shelves, making them look clean and, and dusted and perfect all day. You never see someone working there standing in a corner, you know, texting on the side. They are always looking after that store, making sure if someone's lost, they take them to an aisle and show them where they can find something.

Um, all the way down to free cookies, which I grew up on. I grew up in Miami, and we all know, "Can we go? Can we go? Can we go?" Because, uh, kids get free cookies at the bakery. Oh, yes. Yeah.

Mark: And the scale of the stories are different. Th- these are really s- you know, small little gems. Um, like a couple of them are just one-shots, um, with voiceover, and they have a really powerful, quiet vibe to them.

Whereas the Job One stuff, the stuff at the top that we were talking about, are big. They're expansive stories. Um, they're, they are kind of crown jewels, but that second layer is really important, and there's a lot more of them, and it, it, the one-two punch is really great. They do different things, but they do it...

It's, they complement each other.

Chris: And if I understand correctly too, this last one was actually done on film as well. It wasn't a digital, um, or it may have been simultaneously. I know that happens sometimes, but-

Mark: No, it, you're right. You're right. It was shot on film, which is that nod to craftsmanship, which we have in all of the productions, and, um, so it's important to us as an agency.

It's also very important to Publix because they put a lot of effort into everything they do, and that, that effort has to include communication. So production value and storytelling is very important to them, which is great.

Chris: As someone who shot film, photography, but not, not video, but, um, who shot film back in the day, I understand the value of having, you know, that negative too that they have.

It's like an archival thing. It's, feels like you actually get a physical product from the work. It's not just, "Oh, where is that in our Dropbox account?" You know?

Mark: It's the second client this year that we've shot on film. So f- Benjamin Moore we did a spot with, shot on film, and I don't think it's a coincidence.

I think it's a statement against AI. When it... One of the things I never would've predicted is because AI is so cheap and, you know, ready and, but not high quality, clients are saying, "Well, I wanna do... I want to prove our quality. I, I believe in craftsmanship." I didn't expect that. I thought everyone was gonna jump on the bandwagon, and that hasn't happened.

And it's another reason we did puppets in a analog sense. We could've done that with CGI, but we thought it was important to get that craftsmanship, so i- I think craftsmanship is in right now, so.

Chris: I have noticed that's a trend this year, especially with technology and things, um, as I was looking, like, what's, what, what is everybody trying to do?

Like, in the creator space, what's being pushed really hard is doing livestreams and things where you have a really hard time faking it or using AI to prove it as, you know, anything but real. And, um, yeah, I think there's, there's definitely a push for that, and if you look at the consumer market, typically when they find out AI is involved, there's a revolt.

It's not every time, and it depends on how it's handled, but, like, you know, Coke has, like, doubled and even tripled down on doing AI ads and things like that, and every time it comes with some level of hate, some level of annoyance, and, you know, people kind of passively accept it, I guess, but I don't see a lot of love for it right now.

And I could be wrong, but I don't see a lot of love for it.

Amber : Yeah, I feel like it went through a phase, right, where as creative people with new tools, you wanna see what it can do, and there was an, uh, a surge to lean in and be like, "Can it do this? Can it do that?" So you could figure out where, "Oh, that's not good.

Don't do that. Don't set this precedent." Like, we all had to sort of form our own opinions, but I would agree with you now. I feel like people's go-to is like, "Pfft, That's AI," and you're like, "No, it's not." Like calmed down.

Mark: Just to bring it back to what we were talking about before with the story data thing we're doing, as an example on Publix or any of our clients, we do not sit there and type in, uh, what kind of commercials.

We go do what we do, is great strategy, great creative, and then we s- we ask the tool, we put our, our creative into it and say, "Hey, is this emotional enough? Is it different enough? Is it..." So it's just like a, a guide. It's not, uh, you don't, you don't get a output from it. You just get like, yes, this, a probability that you're, you're doing the right thing here.

I think that's very different than, um, how a lot of agencies are using AI right now.

Chris: That's, and, and I think that's the way to use it, honestly. Like, I, I think using it as a structural framework tool or to assist with automations or to, to do things in that realm is where it makes sense. But yeah, once you start making it, "Hey, here's the final product.

Oh, this was all AI," you start running into issues. I mean, we're, yeah, you know. And then of course you have the clients that want to stay cheap, and they're like, "Oh, we'll just use AI on it," and then they come back to you and they're like, "We did, and this took us twice as long because all the input, all the outputs were bad."

Um, so yeah, so it just, it becomes a whole thing. I mean, what, the horror stories this year are people going, "Oh, we didn't get our annual bonus because, you know, our boss blew the budget on AI tokens." And so... Right.

Mark: Right, exactly. Whereas what, what we do is we have this data set so, it w- that we've taken years to build.

AI is just helping us ask it questions You know what I mean? That, that's all that it really is. And then production-wise, we do, like I said, we, we do the prototyping and everything, but I, we don't use it for final production. Not yet. It's not ready yet.

Chris: I mean, it's, it's definitely handy for people like me who are stick figure artists when it comes to drawings.

If I wanna block out a storyboard for a client on something we're working on, it's much easier to have a visual representation, but-

Mark: Yeah, exactly.

Chris: So Publix is really big campaign for you all. What's, what's kind of on the horizon? Is there anything you can talk about or anything you're excited about in the coming year for Fig?

Mark: Well, we just dropped a new, uh, campaign for Tropicana. I don't know if you got a chance to see that, just last week. And it, it's a really fun one. I think it's, uh, it's gonna disrupt the category. Uh, it doesn't look and sound and feel like a orange juice ad. Um, it's really different and, and it just makes a lot of sense.

Amber and the team came up with a breakthrough strategy on it of that orange juice is actually how we use it for uplift, for energy. And we took that, the creatives took that. We wrote stories about it, but we placed it in the tropics. So Tropicana in the tropics just makes so much sense. But it just wasn't, it hasn't been done.

So, uh, all of a sudden it's gonna ... The whole brand has a new look and feel that I think is really exciting.

Chris: We'll provide a link to that. I think we've got ... I think y'all have some of that on your website. We'll provide a link to that in the show notes for people. That and all the Publix stuff, 'cause that's just, it's so fascinating.

Publix, actually funny side note for me personally, is we live in Tennessee, and we, we used to go on vacation, we still go on vacation to Florida. Florida is like, going to Florida and seeing a Publix is like f- some- for my family for years it was like, "Oh my gosh, they have a Publix." Like, it was a destination.

And then when they finally came to my hometown in Knoxville, like, family was just like, "Oh my gosh, we got a Publix." And now there's one on my drive to my parents' house. So it's, it's become a lot more of our local story, so we don't have like the ... The, the history behind it for us is like, this is the vacation grocery store.

And now it becomes like the place we can go, you know, to get stuff. It's well-respected. You know, "Where'd you get that cake?" "Oh, we got it at Publix." "Oh." I was

Mark: gonna say, for the neighborhood, you'll definitely get a merry bir- birthday cake. Yeah, indeed.

Chris: Yes. Yeah, I'm gonna have to go check it out. Um- Yeah, and for all my family too.

Okay, so as we wrap up, I always like to ask, I mean, we talked a lot about AI during this conversation, but it doesn't have to be AI. But, uh, in general, with the trends and with things going on in the industry, what are you looking forward to in the industry as a whole?

Mark: I was thinking about this, that you know how in engineering there's front end and back end?

Yeah. Nobody talks about or thinks about it, but that's where all the stuff happens. And the front end's just kind of the, "Oh, isn't this nicely designed?" You know? I think the same thing's happened in our industry. The creative's the front end, and we think that's what everybody's seeing, and this- we're making all the big decisions.

Meanwhile, it's the back end making all the decisions. And the back end is the, the programmatic, and it's, uh, tension media, and it's, uh, traditional media, and performance media. The media guys, you know, they've done a very good job at optimizing media and getting attention of a client, making it cheaper for them to go to market.

The problem is it doesn't work. It doesn't, it just doesn't work. Not as effective as they say. So they need the creative, and I, I hope the industry, and I do see signs of it, are gonna come back together. And creative does its thing with effectiveness, and media does its thing with efficiencies, and together we could solve big problems.

That's what I'm excited about. Uh, 'cause I don't think right now creative has the voice it used to have. People like me could've g- walked into a room at one point and clients would listen to you. Now they're listening to the data, and we don't, we the creatives don't have the data. That's what I'm excited about changing, getting back in a room and making creative the first and, uh, last thing that a client thinks about.

Amber : Yeah, that's well said. I think for me it might be similar and, but I'm gonna say it more provocatively because it's just me. But I think we need to, we need a reckoning. I think it keeps happening, and I think really big headlines get found out, and people break really big stories about the lies that are very lucrative in this business.

Um, and I like that we have a lie detector. And I would like to, yeah, get in as many boardrooms and, and conference rooms as I can to be like, "That's not true. That's not true. That's not true. Look, look, look." Because I think it would help creative, and creative still is a pretty phenomenal tool, uh, in the toolbox for businesses and brands.

Chris: What do you think is the biggest lie in, right now that you see going around? You're like, "If I could just stop it, I would stop it."

Amber : I think for me it's the black box, that you have marketers spending enormous amounts of money, and they don't even really know what ran.

Mark: Yeah, on top of the, another lie I should say is performance.

Every- anybody who spends 10 minutes looking at it, it's based on clicks. And clicks could be cheated. The bots click for you. So, uh, right off the bat you're looking at something you don't really know what you're looking at. S- that's a huge problem, and when I say performance, that's not the kind of work I do personally, but that work is growing and growing and growing.

CMOs have to deliver numbers, and performance is, you know, it appears the only way to do it. So I, I think that's a huge threat, and it's based in large part on fraud. Not intentional, but the result is a lie. So it is something we have to solve, and I think everybody wants to solve it. I don't think anyone's saying, "No, let us lie."

Like, the systems are just... They have, you know, holes that we have to patch.

Amber : Yeah, I would think that's that. It's that we should all revel in the day where we don't have to pass the tests, because the state that passing the tests has taken our industry to is horrifying. And really lacks inspiration and excitement, and that's why so many of us are in this world.

It's... We are creative people, whether we hold the pens and, and the creative or cameras, if you will. Like, we, we all are creative people. It's why we like it.

Mark: It's still there. I mean, just today we were sitting around with some of the creative directors and stuff. We were all hanging out, talking about, "Did you see that spot?"

Like, I think we were talking about the Adidas spot with Timothée Chalamet. It, it's amazing, and we were just like, "Holy shit, did you see it?" It, it, it's still there. Everybody just marvels. When there's a great story, people just gather around it and are jealous of it, and it's just great. And that's still happening.

It's just we have to push some of these forces back and let it happen more often.

Chris: So on that point of creativity, um, I have two kind of wrap-up questions. One I don't normally ask, but I'm gonna ask it anyway because I'm really curious. Um, and that first question is, how do you stay inspired? I mean, I find that creativity is something that you can't just magically have.

Like, you have to feed that engine somehow. So how do you stay inspired for creativity within your own business?

Amber : It... I always go back to something I was told when I was a kid, and that was I'd say, "I'm bored, I'm bored." She's like, my parents would be like, "You're... If you're bored, you're boring." And I was like, "Ah, what?

What does that mean?" I mean, I just consume the world. Uh, everything. Pictures, books, I'm a big reader, movies. You just... Ideas are everywhere if you go looking for them. Even a walk around the block. So you gotta stay out there. You have to stay connected to the world and appreciate its changes and just consume.

Uh, s- not, not stuff necessarily. That's not really my thing, but, uh, definitely ideas.

Mark: Yeah. I, I guess I would say hitting my head against the wall. I, I'm really inspired by a problem, uh, and the harder the problem the better. And once I have it in my head, and I think it's true of most- Creative people in the broadest sense, anybody who works at a, a ad agency.

I think we're, we're those types of people. Engineers are like this too. It's like you throw a problem at them, they drop everything, and all of a sudden they go from this to this, and they really laser point, you know, focus on it. I love that process, and it's, it's the kind of thing you stay up all night doing, not 'cause it's your job.

It's 'cause you want to solve the problem in an elegant way. Uh, so that's how I get s- you know, inspired, is just by figuring something out.

Chris: Well, and the next question, final question, y'all probably know this is coming, but just wanna ask, um, what brand do you all admire the most right now?

Amber : Uh, I thought about this one a lot.

There's a few. I really do thoroughly enjoy watching a industry compete, so I do like watching Anthropic compete with OpenAI from an advertising perspective, 'cause boy, do I miss those days when, you know, cars would fight for the, the moment. Um, but for me, the most surprising one I saw recently, 'cause we had, you know, the Olympics and Super Bowl, was ACG's return from Nike.

That was like... You were like, "Oh, I haven't seen that version of Nike in a really long time." And it was culturally in the landscape in a way that I just kept getting served and discovered. It felt alive as work in a way that I was like, "W- who did th-" I remember reaching out to everybody, "Who did this? Who is in charge of this?

This stuff is absolutely amazing." So for me it was ACG.

Mark: Yeah, I started in the same place. I have two. So, uh, Anthropic or Claude is right up at the top for me. First off, it's really good advertising from Mother. Uh, they're doing competitive, really good advertising. More importantly, it's a great product. We use it all the time.

And then that third is the, the company has an ethos. They do try to make good decisions. At least I'm buying it. Like they- they're, they're pushing back where they're supposed to push back. All those things add up to what a brand story really is. Uh, you know, advertising and co- communications are part of it, but it's not everything, and when they line up, it's fantastic.

Oh, um, Squarespace. Just, uh, David Lee is the creative director there. Uh, he just hits home runs every time he gets to the plate. And, uh, this past couple years he's just, you know, on fire. And both brands, because they're so good, and they have that belief system and everything, they know- they have the confidence in storytelling.

They really believe in their brand, and they're proud to do it, and do it in a different way that really captivates people. So, uh, bravo to both of them. I think they're doing great. I

Chris: mean, those are all really good brands. I remember the Nike campaign, if it's the one I remember, was really impressive. I was like, feel- you felt like Nike's back.

Like, where has it been? But it really, it really felt like it came back. I had the good fortune years ago to meet Stanley Hainsworth, who was part of that team and everything, and I'm just... You know, there, there's just a nostalgia with Nike as a brand, um, that I think a lot of people love. And so to see them come back with that campaign was really great.

But yeah, those are, those are all awesome. Well, thank you all for coming on today, and for chatting. Um, if people wanna get in touch with Fig, or, um, you all individually, where can they go? How can they get in touch with y'all?

Amber : We are figagency.com, for those who are worldwide web inclined. Um, and we are Fig both on Instagram, just Fig on Instagram and LinkedIn.

Um, Mark and I, and all the names he's, you know, shared with you today about Fig are all contactable individually, um, in any of those platforms as well.

Chris: Well, thank you all. Thank you all for coming on. And, um, and yeah, we hope to maybe have you back someday.

Amber : Thanks for having us.

Mark: Uh, thanks for having us. Yeah, it's been a pleasure.

Chris: Thanks for checking out this episode of We Built This Brand. Don't forget to like, follow and subscribe on your player of choice. You can also keep up with the podcast on our website at webuiltthisbrand.com. If you liked this episode, please give the podcast a five star review, and make sure to tell all your friends about it so we can continue to build this brand.