The Serendipitous Path to Brand Strategy with Patrick Collins

Patrick Collins: Yes you cant satisfy everyone, but if you have a strong brand strategy and foundation and you do those workshops

And you continue to evolve and edit, zoom in and zoom out, you're gonna be able to get all the way from like executive top, whether that's a founder or CEO down to that like, you know, the, the writers and design team that you're building, that brand book or those templates for, and when they all sort of trust it and believe in it and, and have energy for it, that's where you're gonna perform the best.

Chris Hill: Welcome to, we Built this brand, the podcast where we talk to the creators and collaborators behind brands and provide you with practical insights that you can use in growing your own business. Did you know that it doesn't always take a degree in marketing to become an expert in this field? Sometimes it takes a degree in art or medieval history or even women's studies.

In today's episode, I'm talking with Patrick Collins, the head of strategy and partner at the Chicago based agency, some odd pilot. We discuss his unconventional career path from an agree women's studies to brand strategy and how it influences his work. Today we dive into some great projects that he and his team have worked on, like Darn Tough Socks, as well as the rebranding of both Lollapalooza and Kimberly Clark.

And the contrast in between. So get your marketing socks on and join me as we dive into this conversation with Patrick Collins of some odd pilot.

All right. Well, Patrick, welcome to We Built This Brand.

Patrick Collins: Thank you for having me, Chris. How's it going?

Chris Hill: It's going well, man. I'm, I'm really excited to be here talking today about, um, your background with some odd pilot and, and learn a little bit more about you and what you do. So typically how I'd like to dive into these is just to learn a little bit about where you got your start and what led you to where you are today.

So, um, yeah, how did you get into this industry?

Patrick Collins: Yeah, no, definitely. Great question. Um, it's, I sort of had a strange path, so I won't go like back to when I was born, but I am, um, born and raised in Chicago and I went to undergrad and grad school in Chicago at DePaul. Um, and so in undergrad I actually studied women's and gender studies and policy, public policy.

And then in grad school I studied gender studies so at first glance neither of those You know might have like a clear through line to creative strategy or brand strategy, but I think both ultimately are about understanding people and so, and a lot of writing and research. And so in the meantime though, after grad school, I was working at a women's, um, cons, high end upscale women's consignment store and boutique new clothing as well.

While working there began running the website or actually like helped build sort of like working with a creative team. At that point, I didn't even really know what a creative agency was, but I was the client on the, on the other end of the calls as we built this like very custom, really beautiful e-comm site.

And then ultimately I was the one that was managing that site. So on the backend. Um, the uploading all of that. So in the CRM all the way to, like, I was writing the headlines, the product descriptions, I was packaging the items. Um, so I was all of a sudden getting unknowingly this sort of like taste of, of e-comm and what sort of like agencies do and how they work.

And in the meantime, or at the same time, rather. I was introduced to a friend of a friend, um, and she is one of the co-owners of Semi Pilot, which is the agency I'm I'm a partner at. And she knew I was a, you know, she knew my background, she knew I was a, a good writer and that I enjoyed sort of like long, long form short form.

So she brought me in on like a one off project sort of almost as like a favor to me but also a favor to them because they were in a pickle

So I came on for that project. I wrote sort of this, this book for them, uh, was here probably working like 20 hours a week. This is like 20 16, 20 15. Uh, and then I like to say I sort of like Kim Gibblered my way into the industry. So the project ended sometimes like literally the, the founder, so the other owner of the company, Chris.

A couple years ago asked this too. He was like, how did you get here? And I was like, yeah, my freelance gig ended. And I sort of like the next day just appeared and was just on my computer doing my own stuff. And, you know, someone was like, whatcha doing here? And I was like, I'm just in case something comes in.

Uh, and then something came in and then something came in again. And, you know, all of a sudden I, I sort of became our de facto. Accidental writer and was hired full-time.

Chris Hill: Wow. So you just kind of hung around the office until they started giving you more work? Basically,

Patrick Collins: I hung around and then on my early projects, I truly, you know, like I said, like I, I had been absorbing creative and content, and I living in the fashion world.

Less so the gender studies, but that comes into play a little bit more with how I think about strategy. But in my early days, like I remember being in a meeting for one of our shoe brands, this is literally month two and it was a brainstorming meeting and I was, I was quick to speak up 'cause I was like, I want.

Be remembered here, right? Like, you have to be valued to be hired. Um, so I was, I was at the same time when I was throwing out ideas, people were mentioning a deck. I had no idea what a deck was. So I literally am like in a corner googling what is a deck? And getting, you know, images of a patio. And now, you know, 10, 11 years later, I literally, I tell my partner, I, I'll wake up and I'm in a deck.

You know, it's the last project I was working on the night before. All I see when I dream now is just slides. So. The, the natural evolution becoming a creative

Chris Hill: Yeah. Yeah. Those, those decks. Um, I've had to do a lot for startups in tech, in the tech world stuff, and it's, uh, it's a lot of fun, um, having to create those, uh, all the time.

Patrick Collins: Yeah. That's just because I, I, you know, do the strategy research, writing, so that's just, that's the world we live in.

Chris Hill: Absolutely. So to to, to take it back just a little bit, you mentioned you started in, in women's studies. I'm, I'm curious what drew you to that? To start with

Patrick Collins: A mix of things. I, when I, you know, started freshman year in college, I think I was, I was, I went to liberal arts school, so like classically I changed my major like 33 times in a week without telling anyone.

You just sort of like decide at in the cafeteria and I took an elective An important note here. Also, I have six sisters, so I'm the only, I'm the only boy and I'm, you know, more progressive and sort of was like finding myself at at at, at college and I took an elective and I really, really enjoyed it. And I sort of took another class that was like, you know, cross-referenced.

I checked off that elective, but it was also a women's studies class and within a year I was all sudden just on my way to just taking that as a major I already had my

Uh, public policy. I was already like, sort of in line for that and then I, I realized I could double major in it and then I just really, really grew interested in the people I was meeting, the way that it was like changing how I think like radically to, to that point on strategy. I think that that's where it is really, really helpful is gender studies is often about

Not locking something into a box, right? Like we talk in gender a lot about objectivity versus subjectivity and social constructs and all of these things that like, you know, when you think about one of our footwear brands might not make a lot of sense, but as you're actually like formulating and structuring a project and the argument you're trying to make.

It's a lot of similar ideas because it's like a lot of two things can be true at the same time. And we need to draw colu, you know, you have to draw a conclusion in gender studies. When I'm writing a page paper, you have to arrive at something, but that doesn't mean that my um, classmate. Who drew a different conclusion.

It doesn't mean that that was wrong either. It's just all about like sort of getting pointy, putting a lens on it, putting pieces together, and then arriving at something that feels sort of substantial and digestible. And then who knows? Like, you know, as with brands, a month later. So social constructs change.

Our, our culture is changing minute by, well, by the time we're off this podcast, I'm sure we'll learn something new, um, when we open up our phones. And so then it's all about going back to it and, and updating it and, and just really sort of like keeping your perspective alive and just that ability to, to change and adapt and evolve and not

Think so. Black or white.

Chris Hill: Yeah. I, I, that makes a lot of sense because when you're dealing with brands, especially in the identities, the people behind brands, I've talked to a lot of people about that, of how, um, you know, people really, they're looking for a brand to say, this is my identity. This is who I am, this is what I am.

And I mean, even, even today when I was looking over the website and the clients you worked with, I noticed like Patagonia and Chaco are on there and some place. I'm really finding my identity right now is in. Might laugh at this, but fly fishing, it's been a lot of fun to learn. It's been a lot of fun to get into and um, you know, Patagonia is a brand that I really love and respect and that's where I'm finding identity is in that style of clothing, equipment, all that stuff.

Even Chaco to some somewhat the same degree. So I can see why having an understanding for that fluidity of that change. Matters. Um, in a lot of ways.

Patrick Collins: Yeah, absolutely. I think Pat, I mean, Patagonia's, Patagonia, so it's always, we've worked on a lot of, I've been able to work on a lot of really great projects with them here, um, from some smaller, sort of more political campaigns back in like 20 15, 20 16, and was also able to work on them developing like PAW Patagonia action works we sort of like led that.

It's funny when we bring it up in, in client meetings though, almost to your point of like knowing who you are. Uh, especially on like pitches. We'll, you know, we'll mention I work with Patagonia and a lot of people are self-aware. A lot of marketers are self-aware enough to be like, we love it, but like it's very hard to be Patagonia, right?

Like to have that band, uh, brand. Foundation and be so, um, committed because not every brand can do that. But I think Chaco is a good example of that, that pivoting and the work that I've been able to do with them because when we inherited that brand initially, they already had, you know, the fly fishers and the rafters and this really core audience of outdoorsy people and granola people and like fifteen year old camp counselors

And when they, when they came to us, the brief then was really like, we need, you know, we're, we're doing well, people love us, but we have to open up to new audiences. And so we were, we came in to evolve. So like, not to, not to change, but just be like, okay, there's other ways we can think about like what this product can mean and what this brand can mean for like a whole new set of consumers.

And so we opened them up to lifestyle, but we didn't lose that thread to the you know, rafters and the fly fishers those outdoor core I think when you do that

When you lose the thread, then I think you lose sort of like all connection to who you are and then, then you're not just having a rebrand every couple years or you know, evolving a campaign. All of a sudden that's when those brands have those aha moments of like, oh, we really ed up. Who are we?

Chris Hill: Yeah, for sure.

And then they've gotta go and they do the apologies and. Have, you know, have all the, yeah, I'm sorry, tours and, oh, we're trying to get back to where we were in our roots and yada yada. So

Patrick Collins: we were just joking. Um, last week, my team and I about the, do you remember like the Dominoes apology that they did a couple years ago?

Domino's Pizza they did like, and it, this is like, I don't even remember, not not recent years and years, but they had changed their recipe. This is like sort of just a funny story, but they, their sort of like stunt that they did was like this big apology that like, we know we, we screwed up. Um. You know, we, we've updated our, our pizza recipe and it completely worked.

Domino's is doing very well, so sometimes, sometimes those apologies if you turn it into a stunt uh, and get some good press. It works in your favor.

Chris Hill: Yeah. What, what is it they always say there's no such thing as bad press.

Patrick Collins: Yeah, exactly. I think there's, there's some, yeah.

Chris Hill: Yeah. I agree. But, but it definitely, definitely is all a matter of how you, how you approach that and how you handle that in the end.

Patrick Collins: Yes, absolutely. I think that like the other thing about, when I think about gender studies and sort of like taking a look back on how I've arrived where I am right now, I think another overlap to like brand strategy is, and brand strategy, but also just like as a strategist, a lot of times people are like, what does a strategist do?

And it's different at every agency, every type of creative agency. Uh, but a lot of it for me is like not just laying the foundation, but it's also like you really are on multiple teams so you like you do have a foot in account you're working extremely

close closely with designers and video producers and editors. I have the, the writers are on my team in terms of how we run our structure, so extremely closely with them and, and guiding there. But, um, I think that ability to sort of like pivot, like we talked about, but the context switching, the connecting dots, the, like, the ability to like zoom in and zoom out and not get so narrowed in on one specific detail is a big part of brand strategy for me because it's that ability to like

Take a step back, take a breath and sort of say, okay, what are we actually doing here? And do we actually need to accomplish?

Rebrand. Or a, you know, a marketing campaign or a spot, regardless of the ask. I think sometimes we go through those moments of like, we started with three directions, then we got, they chose one, and then we went there and then, you know, and I've been a part of this as well where I've let this happen, right?

And then the client made an edit. And then we made an edit and then you're like, wait, how did we get here? And how does this once again connect back to our brand DNA or what we set out to do here? And so that balance of sort of creative and practical thinking, I think is a big part of, of how I think about strategy.

Chris Hill: Yeah, and I like what you said about zoom in and zoom out too. 'cause I feel like when it comes to strategy for anything, like you need to be able to take it from. Um, the highest level of like, this is our broad idea for what we're doing. And be able to communicate that all the way down to the most tactical decision you make in the campaign.

Um, because you know, it's not just you working on it. You've got writers, you've got all these people up and down the chain, and if you're able to explain it properly, then they understand, well, this supports this, which supports this, and that's the strategy we're going for. Um, and I think that's evidence of a clear campaign to be able to.

Manage it like that. Let's talk a little bit about your, your, um, your company. Some, well I guess not your company, but the company you're a partner in. Um, some odd pilot. Tell me. What, what is some odd pilot? That's such an interesting name.

Patrick Collins: Yes. Yeah, so, um, we are based in Chicago. We're in the Wicker Park neighborhood.

Um, I'm sitting there right now, um, and we were founded in 1999, so we just last year celebrated our 25th anniversary, which was really fun. Uh, founded, I mentioned earlier, but, uh, Chris is our founder and we.

Fashion. I think it maybe makes, it makes sense how I got into this business because Chris, similarly, um, you know, he started this as a record label and began working on, you know, various projects with, he's very, very, uh, immersed in music and the indie music scene within Chicago. Photo and so.

Um, you know, hired his first person and somehow Pilot as a name actually comes from a lyric in a, or the name of a song that him and his band wrote when he was 13, I think. 13 or 14. So we, we have the lyrics like printed out downstairs on, on a wall. Um, the, the original sort of like hand scratch and, yeah, since, since, sorry, began sort of slowly grow.

Pitchfork back when it was based in Chicago, before it was Conde Nast and all of that. Um, basically like shared the building or the block on the same block as him. Um, and this was back when before they had a brand or a logo or I think every page of the website back then was like hard coded. Um, I wanna say this is like 2003 ish.

And so he was talking to there. Decided to do like their first brand identity, um, and logo and website. And so sort of just like checked a couple boxes and just grew from there. And then Annika, um, who I also mentioned, came on as sort of like a managing director and helped really sort of like steer and grow, grow the business.

But right now, yeah, we're a.

I think another interesting part about about our agency model or why I enjoy working here is I'm on the second floor of our office in Chicago, but on our first floor is what we call, it's called Public Works. Um, and that's sort of like our community arm. So it's an art gallery, a retail store, a venue. Um, and so we do shows throughout the year.

We do limited edition apparel and collabs. We have different artists in, so we're open on Saturdays and Sundays. So you sort of have this like upstairs, downstairs, you know, a lot of the, a lot of the creative and the output that happens downstairs as like a sandbox for creativity. If you'll, is done by the same people working up here on like very big brand, you know, structured, uh, projects.

Chris Hill: That's, that's really neat because then that gives them an outlet for their creative endeavors. Whereas, you know, the work that they're doing on a day in, day out basis may not be. That outlet may not be that opportunity.

Patrick Collins: Definitely. And I think it, it's, it's helpful in particular too, in terms of, you know, one of our greatest assets I think at Summit Pilot is like our connection to culture.

And so it's not about studying culture. I think like as a strategist myself, like I'm less, um, qu on.

I taking the pulse on that culture and understanding like where our brand lives now, who sort of like our target is, where the trends are taking us and what's happening in this larger universe. And so like being in the neighborhood that we're in, in the city we're in, and then having this space that like culture is literally flowing in and outta just feels like a really organic sort of place to live and, and to be Working on my computer right above

Chris Hill: that is really neat.

I'm, I'm just like, man, that sounds like the. Yeah, I'd love to work there. If I didn't already have my own company, I'd be like, can I, can I come work here? So you've come into some autopilot, you've, you've become a partner there, um, over time, and that's, that's really great. But what, um, what have been some of your favorite projects?

What have been some of your favorite things that you've been able to do since you've been there?

Patrick Collins: Yeah. Um, I'll, I have a couple in mind. One that immediately comes to mind just because I'm in the middle of it, um, or I'm in the middle of sort of year or two. An extension is a campaign that we've been working on, a brand campaign that we've been working on with a brand called Darn Tough, and they are a sock brand family owned, based in Vermont and just extremely beloved.

So. We joke here, like when we win a piece of new biz, someone's either friend or parent. I mean, hopefully we're all very excited too, but there's always that like, oh my God, my dad's freaking out. You're working with like cat footwear or whatever. It's, and for this one with darn tough, we had a lot of, a lot of our team and parents we're excited because it's just a.

Like I said, beloved Sock brand, but it's also, you know, they sell at REI, they sell at a lot of local independent stores. It's a big like hiking sock brand. Um, and they're extremely comfortable, comfortable and they also have a lifetime warranty. So there's just like all these great things that check a lot of boxes and a lot of boxes for like parents of adult children and something they can put in a.

For their first ever brand campaign. So they've had just like this consistent, you know, they have a great marketing and brand team, but in terms of working with an outside agency, they've just had consistent growth over time. But they, similar to Chaco, we're starting to reach that sort of like, you know, we can stay on this path and that's great, but we have such great product, such great, really incredible internal company culture.

Um. And just so much brand love that we feel like there's audiences sitting, like whether it's a town over or you know, they're in Vermont all the way over in California that just would love us project our product if we gave them a chance to learn who we are. And so, you know, from what I've just said, brand awareness, obviously a big part of that brief.

And we developed a campaign for them that's called Darn It. So.

It's amazing. Yeah. Um, and darn is, you know, within their brand name is already pun because it'd.

We, the big sort of unlock there and, and something that I think is another really important part of my strategic practice is that like in person immersion or, you know, not can't always be in person, but in terms of really getting to know the stakeholders, you know, it's not just about like absorbing old brand books and.

Sent like the consumer segmentation that a different agency did and piecing everything together. That's a big part of it. But usually like that, we like to say like hidden gems over here, right? Like we like to find a brand's hidden gem and usually that's not gonna come reading 500 pages of different decks.

It really requires like those one-on-one meetings, those conversations with. Even the conversation with the employee that's been there for like three months and it's like, what drew, what drew you here? Why? Why did you apply for a job at this company? Um, and so.

We got to walk around their mill. They make everything there, it's all, it's all American made and got to meet the founder, um, and hear about sort of his vision and how the company organically grew. And in doing all of that, you know, we knew about the warranty, but it's something that's just like, it's nice, you know, a warranty at that point is sort of just like a nice to have and warranties right now.

Consumer goods are so confusing because usually they don't mean much. Right. There's so fine print and we, when we were at mill.

And it was just incredible. Like the, we each got to open a, a bag of socks that had been returned to each of our teammates, and we're sitting and there's like dogs all over. It's just like the most like picturesque sort of little place that you'd imagine. You're like, oh my God, these businesses still exist.

I can't believe that. And we open them up and in every single one is like a letter and it's, it's like I bore these. Through throughout my entire college experience, and they went with me to three different continents. And I'm so sad to give them up, but there's a hole in this one, or it's ripped here, or it burned here.

Um, and I mean, just the most incredible stories of like wearing them, um. You know, in Afghanistan or like to their wedding and just, just crazy. So an incredible amount of brand love. And they get these wedding invitations, but within that, they also had in on the wall in the back some of their favorite letters and they had pinned these socks that were like the funniest stories.

So it was like. One in particular that was like very disgusting. But the dog, it was like this, the sock may look okay, but my dog ate it and then it came out the other and they were like, I don't know if this fits your warranty guidelines, but I'd love, this is my favorite pair of socks. And because it's a one sock you have for life, they're you.

And in finding and then covering those gems, we're like, okay, so one thing that's clear, we all felt so inspired being there and the, and the company culture, which is so important, I think like the output of a company, you know, the output of a co company culture. If you could successfully let the world know that through brand communications, job well done.

And so they had, they checked that box, they checked this like insane rabid fan base and consumer love. And people that like aren't just, you know, the average return or warranty is like fill out, you know, print out the return label, send it in, and yet people are, have. Watercolor paintings they've done with these socks.

And then lastly, as we sort of looked at like the landscape and the competitive landscape and the outdoor landscape, we were like, okay, everyone's warranties and return policies are crazy. So much fine print. They're all going away. And so we sort of like wrapped that up into like, what's the pointiest campaign we could do there?

And it was, darn it, brand awareness. So let's get the name campaign. We consumer stories and consumer love and make seen. So we built it all around these little stories and

scenario. Where people are, you know, where their socks are getting destroyed. But ultimately the most important unlock was we need to double down on the warranty. So the whole idea is like, life's tough, our socks are tougher guaranteed for life. So it's all pushing. It's like taking that emotional side of the strategy and pushing it entirely into like.

Because you can't go all emotion. You still need to functional, like, why should I buy this product in terms of some ROI on the campaign? And so it's just been, it's been really successful and you know, it's not the biggest brand we've ever worked on, but it's one that I feel really proud of, of having like a tight, succinct insight.

Having the creative just look and perform really, really well. And then now moving into year two, there's always the test with the client is like, this did so well working with you so well. We strategy, we're extending it into a.

Chris Hill: Yeah. And that's, and that's, I mean, that, that just speaks well to the work that you've done.

I mean, definitely paying attention to the customer. I'm always big on, you know, getting as close as you can. I've, I've said in previous podcasts, but fingertip close and you were actually going out to their site. I. Feeling, you know, feeling things out for yourself, opening, physically, opening bags of socks.

I mean, you don't, you don't get much closer than that. And you said you had the privilege to do that, but my thought when you said that was like, oh, did that, that stink? I hope. I hope they were clean at least when they got sent.

Patrick Collins: I think we had glo, I think we had gloves on. They weren't clean, all of them, but I think we had gloves on.

I also think a big. A big part of strategy. I mentioned this a little earlier, but is also like really being able to tap in and build that trust with stakeholders because not only is that where you uncover the hidden gems, but that's also where you're able to like get that buy-in every meeting, every little check-in, every formal.

Presentation and those stakeholders could be like, you know, the marketing or brand team that hired you, but in the case of darn tough, it was also in being able to meet the founder. And then you're able to recognize, okay, what are some brand challenges here? It might be a f this, this founder and of this family owned company has never worked with an agency.

So you have to imagine what, what does that feel like? There's gonna be a little bit of trust, mistrust, or going into it. And so build trust early on. I. Not only did it unlock some things that even he told us that then inspired the our creative work and have continued to inspire our work with them. But you also get that buy-in and that positivity and that's how you know that a team's actually gonna put money behind the campaign 'cause they believe in it.

And when you don't have that, I think across the board. And the same goes for rebrands, right? Like when you don't

all pieces. Put them back together, get that buy in from like all forms of leadership. It, it ends up being one of those rebrand that just, you know, doesn't come to life well, or like, you know, you work with them and a year or two later you look and the website's different and you're like, what happened? Uh,

Chris Hill: and it's because where'd our campaign go?

Patrick Collins: Yeah, but it's 'cause a new CMO came in. Right? And, and there wasn't like enough of that buy-in across the board. The time wasn't at. Just that like, yes, you can't satisfy everyone, but if you like.

And you continue to evolve and edit, zoom in and zoom out, you're gonna be able to get all the way from like executive top, whether that's a founder or CEO down to that like, you know, the, the writers and design team that you're building that brand book or those templates for, and when they all sort of trust it and believe in it and have energy for it, that's where you're gonna perform the best.

Chris Hill: Oh, for sure. And and it definitely sounds like, I mean, y'all are doing the right things there too, which is awesome. Want to launch a podcast without the hassle? Humble pod makes podcasting easy from concept to launch. We'll help you create a professional engaging show, already have a podcast. We handle editing, show notes, transcriptions, and even video production so you can focus on your content.

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And it's funny, funny too, we're talking about socks. I am literally sitting here with a hole in my sock. It's a running sock that I've had for a while, and I'm like, I, I should probably check these guys out.

Patrick Collins: The, I mentioned, um, we're working on a new project with them, but it, it involves running socks. Very much so.

So you should check them out. They make awesome running socks.

Chris Hill: Yeah. Yeah. And I'm, I'm, yeah, 'cause I'm gonna have to replace these and I was already like, oh, these were pricey when I got 'em, so, yeah, I know the, I know the emotion there. Um, so that's. That's, that's really neat. So you've, you've worked with Darn tough.

I think you mentioned there was, we were talking about just some of the contrasts and clients you have too at some odd pilot and some of the challenges that come along with that. Um, one of the ones you mentioned was Lalapalooza, which based on the background now makes total sense while you're working with them.

'cause at first I was like. How does an agency get Lollapalooza and then, well, obviously you were a label at one point. You're in the indie scene in Chicago that now makes total sense. So tell me more about that.

Patrick Collins: Yeah, yeah. No, Lalapalooza was, was awesome to work for, especially as a Chicagoan. I remember taking, I grew up in the suburbs and taking the train in when I was like 14, you know, 15 and, and going down and before cell phones were as common and mother was fearful of, you know.

50,000 crazy people. But um, yeah, no, we started, we, so we rebranded Lalapalooza two years ago, so for their 2023 festival and then, you know, that, that brand identity lives on today. And they just, they just sort of announced their lineup, which people have really, uh, a lot of excitement for. But working with them was really interesting.

Involved multiple sort. Live Nation C3. A lot of layers there, a lot of buy-in. And this, the brief there was also interesting, and I think this is a really classic brief and it's hard to know, but it's like, you know, get Gen Z but don't lose our court. And it's like, well, that's what everyone wants, right? Um, or that's what, that's what, that's the goal of many of our projects, at least I would say.

And so in working with them, we did that same level of immersion. Thankfully, with our roots like Chris and Annika and a lot of the team here knew the brand very, very well, but we were still able to talk to the right people, uncover those insights and really try to, I think not Then you have, that's like the zoom in moment, right?

Like you're like, okay, what needs. Why isn't this working from a practical standpoint, whether that's like templates because they presume, you know, as you can imagine with a music festival, you're taking like a design and a verbal and visual system and extending it to literally 10,000 different touch points.

I mean menus and from main stage to like food and beverage carts to wristbands and V wristbands and VIP packages. So right there, that's like a practical issue. But emotionally it was just that the brand had become, it had just sort of like lost its meaning the brand identity. And so that was like the zoom in.

But then zooming out and looking at, okay, well these two core audiences, you've got like Gen Xers really as like the early, you know, this festivals in around for 30 years. That were going there back when it was very subversive and a little bit more political. And then you've got Gen Z right now who's very digitally native.

And we found this like very unique overlap with this idea of like zines and zine culture. And so it connects to like our core fan base because it just represents this DIY aesthetic that does feel sort of. Innately anti-corporate, but then if done correctly in the way that we did it, it also really resonates like digitally because it has this sort of like, not like a glitch, but it's that layering, it's that like DIY aesthetic, it's something that like.

As we, as you and I know, and people in our industry now, 13 year olds, are creating and layering content and collages, you know, within seconds on their phone. Things that used to require Photoshop and, and a whole lot more, uh, time and effort. And it sort of became that, that perfect. Um. Connection or overlap of those two.

So going back to this, our nineties roots, but not making it feel nostalgic per se. It's more of like a wink there. And then something that now with the rebrand and with the launch is just very, very beautiful and it's makes people smile. Um, but it also feels creative and intentional.

Chris Hill: No, no, I was just gonna say that, I mean that's, um, it's a challenge to try and connect everybody, but I hadn't thought about.

Um, zines really, really playing an impact on that. But yeah, I've noticed they're starting to make a bit of a comeback and that reaches all the way back into like the eighties and probably even earlier. So you're reaching, you're reaching those old OG Lollapalooza audiences with that kind of content, I'm sure.

Patrick Collins: Right. And it's not even, and you know, it's not even the production of zines, it's just that the design system itself has that sort of like, pasted together and, and very like, you know, this wasn't done by a professional vibe to it. Um, we didn't wanna go and a lot of. Music festivals right now either go sort of like full chaos, um, which is fun, but it depends on the festival.

And this is a really large festival, so there has to be some level of control. But otherwise they go, I think, a little too clean and crisp. And we also didn't want that, that didn't feel true to like the roots of the brand. Uh, so this was a nice happy medium there.

Chris Hill: Yeah. Yeah. If you go clean and crisp, I think you're gonna go for like the Gen X millennial crowd maybe.

Patrick Collins: Right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. It's the balance again.

Chris Hill: Mm-hmm. And then you're, then you're like, well, what kind of bands are gonna be there? You know, the most bland artist you've ever heard of, and, okay, well,

Patrick Collins: no, that's, that was another interesting part of the, the strategy on that one though too, because you know, every, you get.

The better to a certain extent, but we also know, like at, at the end of the day, it's great to have everyone connecting with and buying your brand. Um, and so like really thinking through like segmentation and personas and psychographics is really great. But for Lalapalooza, for Music festival at that size, I think like our first year that we did it there were like attendee and spending a lot of money on this and.

But the brief there is wide on consumers because yes, like I know we were talking of like, you know, gen Z up to Gen X, but in terms of the genres that also spans so wide, right? So this isn't like, it can't in inherently read as like punk rock or pop, um, or rap. It sort of has to, the brand has to be able to flex to that, but not flex so hard that it loses its own point of view.

It becomes unrecognizable.

Chris Hill: Yeah, it's, it's a challenge when you get big festivals. We've got, um, down here in Tennessee, we've got Bon Rouge. You may be familiar. In fact, they're, they, the company that puts all that on is based out of Knoxville where I live. And, um, it's, yeah, it, we see, we see in here a lot of that conversation.

Um. You know, just being local and stuff. So it's always interesting to me when you know, you're trying to put together a festival that people want to go to. And we have the big Bonnaroo Festival, but then we had the Big Airs Festival here in Knoxville too, which is like hyper indie. I don't know if you're familiar with that one or have heard of it, but.

It's wild. Um, the artists and stuff that I've, I've been introduced to as a result of it. But you know, like, like if I'm looking for one of my favorite bands from way back, like Deer Hoof, I'm more likely to find them at those smaller festivals and things like that versus, um, I. You know, something like Lollapalooza, although they probably have played there at some point.

Patrick Collins: Uh, yeah, they've got everyone. That's the, that's what makes it so hard. You, it's like the most indie of the indie are also still there. They're just in like a lot smaller font on the, on the, on the poster.

Chris Hill: Yeah. They're on that shrinking part of the poster. But that's, that's, that's, um, that's, that's quite the challenge to work with them.

And then you mentioned you were also like working on another campaign in tandem with this. That was like some, I guess, challenge of context switching. I. So tell me, tell me about that.

Patrick Collins: Definitely. That was actually another rebrand, so a brand building exercise. And so at the same time, same year that we were working on Lalapalooza, we actually rebranded, um, and I helped lead the rebrand of Kimberly Clark.

So. Big, big, you know, 40,000 employees, very global company, 150 years of legacy. And so, yeah, LA Palooza has, you know, multi decades, but this was a whole different, whole different ball game. Um, but it was really interesting to be working on them at the same time, because I think there's some, there's, there's shared lessons, but also a really different brief and a really.

When they came to us. I mean, because it's such a massive brand, it has so much legacy, but it's also like a parrot brand, right? So like we all know the logo, but ultimately it's like, we also know like it's the brands that sit below it. Like we're talking like Kleenex and Huggies and Tex and Scott and whatnot.

So there's, so there's a lot happening there, but just as Kimberly itself has these.

And they needed a brand refreshed. Basically, they like, you know, there was like sort of a talent deficit or they really wanted to like, uh, attract and retain younger, great talent to work for the company. And they also had that issue with like, cohesion, just like La Palooza, you know, some of its brand assets.

They wanted to just like tighten up and create a system that was flexible. Even almost, it's like less, they, they don't have 10,000, uh, touchpoints in a park in Chicago, but they have 10 million touchpoint in, you know, every single country and continent. And, and, and ultimately what, what in working with them in.

Working very closely with the stakeholders in that, in those zoom in moments, we began to realize like this was, you know, such a massive ship that this isn't something that you come in and sort of like make a complete, you know, 90 degree angle left or right. Like you can do a lot of work in updating a brand and brand building just with like more.

Right now what? What's in favor with a lot of, and especially legacy brands, I think we're seeing this even more, is like this idea of like disruptive innovation. And we came in and really understanding the heart and the DNA of Kimberly Clark, which really is about. They're a paper goods consumer brand, but they do, you know, their brand platform is better Care for a better world.

There's a lot of intentionality and they have a really great vision and they're making a lot of really great things happening. And so we came in with this idea of, you know, responsible innovation. So like. You know, we had a big slide that was like evolution, not revolution, and it was this idea of like, how can we like update the brand and some of our like central tenets, our visual system, we updated the logo, but like, you know, very nuanced.

We created new, new typefaces that, you know, every single one of those decisions, as you can imagine. And required lot of buyin and a lot of pressure testing. But ultimately I think it was really interesting because with what came out, you know, at the end of the project was this like completely different looking.

Crazy colorful, you know, musically driven brand identity and what came out of the Kimberly Clark work, which took just as much time, if not longer, is it, like I said, so much more nuanced. But I think that that also is a sign of not just good strategy, but like with our, our creative team. The ability to like have with straight and to understand that like very specific decisions and decision making can ultimately like steer your ship in the better direction.

It just, like I said, doesn't need to be going so far left or right. And also just a good reminder, I think like, you know, I feel like Jaguar always comes up now, which is like the most obvious example. So I, I hate to bring up, but this idea of like when you're working with a legacy brand. Particularly one with, you know, like I said, a lot like agencies.

Doing that disruptive side of, of, of branding and brand strategy where they're just, in my mind a legacy brands like Currency and Equity is in their legacy and, and being recognizable. Um, and so that's something I think you just need to protect. Um, and it doesn't mean that you need to like let it live in the past, but you need to protect that, that core.

Chris Hill: Yeah, I mean, JAG Jaguar is a great example. Of like, just going off the deep end and just, just because they felt like the trend was this, and they need to make a car for this. But everybody knows a jag, you know, for the style and the, and the car that they've built. I mean, they built beautiful cars to begin with and the new ones aren't, I mean, they're really different, but they're not, they're, they're not like the worst things in the world.

Like they'll, they'll probably be accepted in time, but yeah, that rebranding can really. Um, really muck up your. You're, you're thinking, and I mean it would've been better had they said, this is our new product line, or this is an offshoot or a separate company. We're trying something new like

Patrick Collins: limited edition.

And then see how it, see how it sort of tests.

Chris Hill: Exactly.

Patrick Collins: Maybe that's a, goes back to what you said earlier at the beginning of this though of, uh. Maybe, you know, bad press is what is it all bad, bad press Is good press or no such thing as bad press. I

Chris Hill: mean, when it comes to cars though, it's a little bit, it's a little bit harder 'cause there's, there's an affinity for like a certain style or look like, you know, if they were chasing the cyber truck, they were probably following the wrong path.

Um, you know, and there's other connotations that come with chasing that style of look or that car. Um, even, even now,

Patrick Collins: also a massive investment.

Chris Hill: Massive invest. Huge.

Patrick Collins: We're not talking about socks anymore.

Chris Hill: Yeah. Yeah. You're you're talking about like a, a giant, if it's, if it was still around a giant episode of Top Gear where they would talk about how Jaguar failed and why they failed.

I mean, they, they helped create some of the image that I think of when I think of Jaguar. So. Um, you know, that, that's, even that, but yeah. When it comes to like Kimberly, Kimberly Clark and the, the brand redesign, like, I, I totally understand what you're saying about the slow evolution 'cause you're talking about a trusted brand.

I mean, I've got two young kids. We use a lot of Kimberly Clark products in our home probably without thinking about it, and I. That brand recognition really does matter still. You need to know what you're going to get. And if it looks too different, like in the example of Jaguar, like you're not gonna recognize that on the store shelves, and that's where it has even more value.

So I can see, I can see why that matters. Um, I remember when I was at at t they did a rebrand and all they did was flatten the logo. They went, we have the 3D globe, now it's flat. And I'm like, okay. But so much thought goes into that. And I know it does, but like so much effort, so much thought goes into those little changes 'cause it all has an impact.

Even changing the font affects the printers that you choose. And you know, if you make a brand color change, it might even change the ink that you just, all these little things you don't think about on a day-to-day basis, but.

Patrick Collins: Exactly. I think those are both, at t's another good example of like with those more nuanced, the slow evolution, you have to sort of go that route often because there's like a trickle down effect that's gonna happen that yes, you can do like consumer testing and focus groups and all of this to sort of see how is this gonna perform, but for.

You really don't know, like what that means when someone's gonna resign their, you know, their phone. And if they had slightly sort of. In the back of their heads, that's where that brand building is happening. Where like, for some, in some capacity, even if you've lost like 2% of that person's trust, that could mean an entire phone plan or for Kimberly Clark, that could mean like a, okay, yeah, we've been buying these, you know, uh, more trusted brands, main, uh, mainstream brands like a Hugs for example, but like a slight change there and a slight change there itself and all.

Uh, this belief, oh, I think they've lost some quality. Maybe I'll, maybe we'll try out the disruptor brand or even the generic brand or whatever it might be. So,

Chris Hill: and on the other side of that too, you've got the, the historical side where if you don't continue to update your brand, you do start to look dated.

And it looks like, oh, well, you know what used to be your favorite logo might still be your favorite logo. Like, if I look out my window here to my right. I've got an old Coke logo, like the old, like somebody painted on the side of an old building coke, um, the Coca-Cola sign. And yeah, it's beautiful. I love looking at it and it's a, it's a cool shot of downtown, but, um, but by the same standpoint, you wouldn't expect that logo to still look the same.

And if you look like you've gotta update for the times too. So that's another piece of it I think that, um, you don't think about until that brand. Evolution happens, if that makes sense.

Patrick Collins: Yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah. I think you, you can't run the risk of like being a dinosaur. You just need to go about it in a smart, in a strategic way.

Chris Hill: Absolutely. Well, Patrick, this has been fantastic, um, chatting with you today. I always like to just wrap up with a couple of questions, um, before, before we go, and we'd just love to run those by you now. Um, so. First one is just, you know, what, what is top of mind in your industry right now? Is there anything for you that, as you look at, like brands or branding over the coming year, that you think like, oh, I gotta really keep my ear to the ground or keep my eye on this?

Patrick Collins: Hmm. Um, I mean, in terms of just like trends that, that I know like. I, we've been enjoying in terms of like how we're idea and concepting for some of our brands. I love where sort of the beauty, fashion, lifestyle world is going with this mixture of like quiet luxury and then chaos sort of colliding. And you're seeing it in like.

Mainstream brands, you're seeing it in editorial, you're seeing it in social content, but this like ability to still have like a refined held together brand, but starting to introduce bits of weirdness and chaos. And I think that that just is like a natural, you know, it's where we're at in terms of TikTok and Instagram and social and this ability for people to put their own stamp on something.

So like you seeing.

Being added into like a major campaign or you're seeing this likeness with social feeds that I think I find it interesting because it's such a delicate balance, a brand that comes to mind that like maybe isn't the. A good example of this ability to have that balance is always like Essence, I don't know if you're familiar with them, they're like a, it's a luxury e-com site, but they're, they're, they do an amazing job and, um, they're very well loved by a lot of people, but they, they have this like incredible ability to.

Balance this like really refined editorial content with this really successful, I mean, it's literally an e-comm site. And then they also are just so tapped into culture. So this ability to be like subversive and just like it doesn't feel like they're following trends. It feels like, oh, I wanna follow them.

Because I wanna see where they're going next. Uh, that was a long-winded answer, but let's just say like, uh, having a sense of humor and an ability to, uh, striking that balance of protecting your brand, but taking some risks when it comes to, to content in particular, their, their Instagram feed is just, um.

Really great.

Chris Hill: Hmm. And is this essence, is it a, is it a, what kind of company is it again?

Patrick Collins: It's, um, e-com. So like the, like apparel, accessories, furniture. It's, it's s it's S-S-E-N-S-E.

Chris Hill: Oh, okay. 'cause I was, I was just googling it real quick. Trying to be quiet.

Patrick Collins: No, no, no. Yeah. Yeah, take a peek at their Instagram after it's, they just do a nice job of, um, 'cause I think, you know, uh, when we get, when you get a campaign brief or, or re brief, you know, there's always like a bullet that's like increase social following and it's, that's that, you know, that's something that.

Is a no brainer in terms of like, of course we all want that. How do we get on people's phones and, and something that they're not intentionally shopping, but we start to become a, a part of their lives. And I think you can swing, some brands swing so hard towards the product. That unless you're a diehard fan, you're probably not going to follow their social feed.

You'll maybe go check out their website or this or that. Um, and then you can swing hard the other way into like, oh, we don't wanna, you know, we wanna be a lifestyle brand and let our products hit in the background. But then you ultimately literally lose the, you know, you lose what you're selling and how you're keeping the lights on.

And I.

They feel like something I wanna interact with. And then in the background, or, you know, in the setting of each of those things, the memes, the, you know, they bring in real Housewives. Um, they just have great editorial piece with one of my favorites, uh, Lisa Barlow. But the product is still a part of it. So yeah, they're great.

A great company to check out.

Chris Hill: Yeah, I, I definitely will. That's, that's fascinating. Um. Yeah, I like that. I like that what you said about, um, what was it, quiet, luxury? Is that the, that's not the term. What is it?

Patrick Collins: Yeah, sort of just, yeah, no, yeah. Quiet. Sort of like quiet luxury and then mixed with chaos. I was sort of saying, I don't know if that's, if I thought about it longer, I would call it something differently, but, um, yeah,

Chris Hill: no, I, I see what you're saying.

It, especially from just looking@essence.com and looking at the website, at least as I'm seeing it now, it, it seems like. Very nice, very, very well done content, uh, very well done photography, but it has like this artistic style to it. It feels like something I'd seen in Art magazine, basically. Easiest way I can think to describe it.

Patrick Collins: Exactly.

Chris Hill: Yeah. As a, as a photographer, I'm, I'm always admirable, a admirable admiring that kinda work, so

Patrick Collins: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely.

Chris Hill: Yeah. That's awesome. Um, well that's, yeah, that's, that's definitely interesting. So, and then of course the last question I always like to ask is, you know, what is a brand that you really admire right now or really, really are crushing on right now?

Patrick Collins: I would've, I should have said, I think I answered it when I naturally got to essence, let's say essence.

Chris Hill: Okay. Essence. It is. Essence. It is. Well, that's, that is awesome. And Patrick, thank you. Thank you for joining me today.

Patrick Collins: No, thank you. I'm honored. Yeah, this has been really great.

Chris Hill: Yeah. So, um, where can people find you, connect with you if you want 'em to connect, and then where can people, um, connect with some odd pilot?

Patrick Collins: Yeah. Um, so I know some odd pilot is hard to imagine how to Well, so it's S-O-M-E-O-D-D-P-I-L ot.com. That's our website. Check us out. Um, an Instagram, same handle. And um, yeah, I would say find me, find me through there.

Chris Hill: Excellent. Alright, well Patrick, thank you for coming on.

Patrick Collins: Thank you so much, or on LinkedIn as well, Patrick Kelly Collins.

Why not?

Chris Hill: Absolutely. We'll make sure you're, you're added on there. Well, Patrick, thank you so much.

Patrick Collins: Thank you, Chris. Enjoy the rest of your day.

Chris Hill: Thanks for checking out this episode of We Built This Brand. Don't forget to like and subscribe on your player of choice. You can also keep up with the podcast on we built this brand.com.

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