How Iconic Campaigns Shape Culture with James Bray

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All right.

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Well James, welcome to the podcast.

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Thanks.

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It's great to be here, Chris.

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Appreciate it.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Glad to have you on today to, um, talk about your time at Arnold and,

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um, just, I mean, in, in a sense, like what it means to, I think be

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creative I think is gonna be a big theme today with a lot of what you all

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do and, um, you know, the approach you all have to, um, being an agency.

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So I'm excited to dive into that and talk to you more about it.

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Um, so I always like to start by getting to know

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you a little bit better, and I would just love just.

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It doesn't have to be long, but a brief overview

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of kind of like how you got to where you are today.

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I don't know that it's brief.

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I've been in the business long enough and it, it's a long drawn out story.

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I was one of those lucky people that I, I watched the commercial

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when I was 14 years old and I said, I want to do that.

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I got chills and I went, holy cow.

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That, that's incredible.

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You can make somebody feel like that in 30 seconds.

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But I didn't necessarily overcommit to it.

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I went off to college.

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I studied, uh, English and art.

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Um, after college I started to kind of doodle, right?

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Ideas and books and slowly but surely built my own book.

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I did not go off to a portfolio school or do any of that.

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And then eventually just became friends with people in the

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industry and they kind of helped me along a little bit.

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And then I landed a job eventually in DDB,

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New York, um, was there about five years.

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Worked on Hershey's, New York lottery, um, Michelin.

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Then I went off to Fallon in, uh, Minneapolis.

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Which was quite an incredible step up, um, an incredible environment.

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David Lubars was the CCO at the time, and the

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creative department was a who's who of people.

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It was a, it was unbelievable.

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All I ever wanted was to just get something on the walls.

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Um, I worked on BMW Holiday Inn, Citibank, and then

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after that I went off to Goodby Silverstein and Partners.

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Um, another incredible experience.

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Met a lot of really smart people.

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Got to work on Netflix, NBA Comcast Sprint.

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And then after that I took a really big gamble and I went to a small agency

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called m and c Saatchi, which was a spinoff from Saatchi and Saatchi.

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The brothers had.

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Been ousted and decided to start their own name

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using the same name, which was very confusing.

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Um, but that was a, that was an experience where I was down in

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Los Angeles and we, when I started there, we were 18 people.

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When I left, we were 120.

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Um, and then after that experience I went to Arnold.

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And at Arnold I work on, um, number of accounts

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ranging from QSRs to financial to automotive.

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Wow, that's quite the journey.

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So you, you, you said, you said Commer a commercial inspired

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you to become an advertiser or work in this industry.

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Was it a specific commercial, a set of commercials?

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What was it?

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It was a Nike spot.

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Um, and you know what?

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I've searched for it and I can't ever find it.

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It was a spot where a man got up in the middle of the night in New York City.

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Maybe it was like 4:00 AM to go for a run and projected on the buildings.

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Were athletes, you know, as inspiration.

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So it was like John McEnroe, Andre Agassi,

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Bo Jackson, Michael Jordan, you name it.

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And even when I talk about it now, you can see the hair stand up on my arms.

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And that's like, that's the barometer that I go by for everything that I do.

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Does it, does it give me, does it give me the chills?

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Does my hair stand up?

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And then, um, then okay, cool.

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We might have something here.

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So that's kind of what drove me to it.

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That is, that is fascinating.

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Interestingly enough, I remember when I kind of got outta college

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and I said, well, what am I gonna do with this thing, this desire?

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How do I make it a reality?

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And I started reaching out to a few people and

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one guy I talked to, um, was creative director.

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He said, you know what?

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I want you to go look at all the award show annuals, and if

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you think you can do that kind of work, then you'll get a job.

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So I remember I went off to, like Barnes and

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Noble, I had no idea what these books were.

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I sat down, I looked at like the Art Directors

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Club one show, um, DNAD, all of them.

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And immediately the, the hair stood up on my arm again and I

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said, yeah, this is absolutely what I want to do with my life.

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I, I always find it interesting when you're younger trying

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to figure out exactly how to put words on what you wanna do.

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I feel like that's a journey for every kid of like, oh, I found this thing

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that made me really excited, but I have no idea how to put it into words.

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Like, if I were to explain to you what I'm doing today,

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as, as at 14, I would've been like, that's really cool.

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How do you do that?

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And.

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You know, part, part of what I like about this part of the conversation

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we built this brand is always that, like this is for those kids

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that are like, how do I get to be, you know, in James' shoes?

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How do I get to that place?

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And a lot of times it's, you know, it's, it's good fortune

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and good skill combined, but there's a lot along the way that.

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It takes to get there and the education's a key

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part of that, so that's, that's really cool.

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Um, you, me, you mentioned getting chills.

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Um, and obviously I wanna talk a little bit about creativity with

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you today and, um, you know, and finding those creative moments.

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Um, how do you get to a place where you,

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when, when you're really starting out, like.

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That, you know, you're on the right direction

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with, with the creative for a client?

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Or how, how do you get those, get to the

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point where you get the chills, so to speak?

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I think the, you know, you've probably heard this a lot.

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Um, it's just finding the truth.

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The reason why we love comedians is we slap our knee and go, oh, that's so true.

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It's just that somebody hasn't been able to shine a light on

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it, or somebody hasn't been able to put it quite into words.

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Or somebody hasn't exposed it in the way that they've exposed it,

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that makes you go, oh my God, that thing that happens is so true.

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It's so funny.

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I can't believe he, he knows that.

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So I thought I was on an island and I felt this weird thing on my own.

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I think that's the key, is trying to strike that thing

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that people know is, is out there, but they just, nobody's

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talking about it or haven't been able to put it into words.

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If you hit that place, then the goal is to not mess it up because.

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You can easily do that.

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Yeah.

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So finding that truth and figuring out how

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to then communicate that to other people.

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I think so.

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I think that's.

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That's 90% of the job.

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And listen, that's not just the creative's job.

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That's everybody's involved, their job, the

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strategists, uh, incredibly important in that role.

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They have to be the ones that are out there mining for those little insights,

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those little nuggets, those little truths that, that spur the idea, right?

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They're, they're the ones that create the inspiration in many ways for

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the creatives to then go try to find, um, a way to express that truth.

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Yeah.

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So then you're constantly looking for inspiration.

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Where do you typ typically find that inspiration?

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You know, it's a really good question.

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'cause I'm on a new journey doing just that.

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Um, it's inter, like, when I first started out, I was incredibly curious.

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I was super inspired.

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I was super passionate.

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Then I became jealous.

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Um, and I think jealousy is a, an an interesting thing, like jealousy.

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Um, I just came back from can, right?

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And I went into that and you go into that going, I know

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what this is all about, whatever, whatever, whatever.

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And you, you might ppo certain things and you know, and it industry's changed.

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It's all about data or it's all about media.

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It's all about the gamesmanship that's played in these award shows.

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But I'll be damned if I didn't walk out of there jealous.

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Um, if you're not jealous, um, then you don't want to compete.

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And I think if you don't want to compete, then you're, you're not

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curious enough, you're not inspired enough, you're not passionate enough.

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And I think, um, however you find your way

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to get to inspired mine just became jealousy.

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Um, and that in some ways, that's like, that

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may not, it may not be the most productive form.

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I, I mean, if, if you're a part therapist, you probably tell me that it

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isn't the most productive way to approach anything is through jealousy, but.

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For a big part of my career, jealousy is what drove me to kind of push harder.

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And you know, when I went off to Fallon, I was jealous of the

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incredible talent in the, in the work that was being done there.

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And I wanted so desperately to be somewhere on the same page with those guys.

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Um.

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And so like, you know, I think the key to any young person

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who's out there looking for a way to, to be inspired

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or to find that thing is just be honest with yourself.

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And it took me a long time to be honest.

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And the honest thing was I'm just a jealous person

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and that just drives me, you know, sad to say.

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No, I, I, I, I hear you.

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Because like, you see, you see something like,

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oh man, they made, they managed to do that.

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How did they manage to make that work?

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And like being able to pick that apart, figuring it out, and then figure out

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how to not just improve upon it, but do it in a way that's uniquely your own.

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I mean, that's its own genesis quo right there.

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Like it's.

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Figuring that out is amazing, but it's also, it's also a challenge.

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Um, and yeah, I, I hear what you're saying.

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'cause Yeah, I think it, I think it goes a little deeper than

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jealousy, but I, I hear, I definitely hear what you're saying there.

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'cause I, I get those same feelings when, as I build a business

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and stuff too, of like, oh yeah, well we need to do this.

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We need to get the best cameras, we need to get the best.

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Recording microphones, you know, the best content and everything.

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So yeah, it all, it all kind of bubbles to the

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surface as you, as you grow, so That's cool.

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So let's, let's talk a little bit, let's move a little

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bit into, um, talking about where you're at today.

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So you're with AR Arnold, correct?

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Yep.

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And, um, exactly what is your role at Arnold?

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So, I'm, uh, the executive creative director.

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Um, I sit just below Chief Creative Officer Sean McBride.

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I try to think that I'm his right hand man, although I don't

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know that he totally needs a right hand or a left hand.

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He is quite capable, but, um, wherever I can fit into make his life easier

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or make my client's lives easier and my, my creative's lives easier.

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In many ways, that's what I am.

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Um, a facilitator at this point.

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It's the odd thing about this industry is like when you get good at something,

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then they make you manage people and you stop doing the thing, right?

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It's like, you're a good shortstop.

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I'm gonna take you off the field.

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Now you're gonna manage the team you.

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So really what I have to do is.

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Kind of find, find the beauty in the idea, find the beauty in

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the process, and then find ways to give them the space, the

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room to grow the idea, and then to succeed and sell the idea.

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So I really like to look at myself more as a

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facilitator than a creative director in some ways.

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Yeah.

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I mean, when you get to that point, you are, yeah.

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You are doing just that.

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You're managing people and that could be a challenge, I'm sure.

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Um, especially when you want to be, like you mentioned getting jealous, right?

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Like, do you ever find yourself maybe not getting jealous of your team,

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but being jealous of the fact that they get to be in the middle of it?

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Totally.

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I mean, I think when I look at talent, the idea that I have

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when I interview somebody is, is this person gonna take my job?

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If I don't fear for my job, then I probably shouldn't hire them.

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Right?

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So everybody that you bring on should be somebody that, um,

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brings something to the table that you wouldn't have thought of.

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00:12:28,785 --> 00:12:30,945
If they bring things to the table that I would've thought

239
00:12:30,945 --> 00:12:33,855
of, then sure, I should still be in on the field playing.

240
00:12:34,395 --> 00:12:37,695
Um, but the goal is to have people that come in and, and

241
00:12:37,695 --> 00:12:40,095
blow you away and go, how the heck did you get there?

242
00:12:40,305 --> 00:12:41,445
Um, that's incredible.

243
00:12:41,895 --> 00:12:43,455
And that's where the jealousy comes in.

244
00:12:43,455 --> 00:12:44,805
It's like, wow, that's incredible.

245
00:12:44,805 --> 00:12:46,995
I'm so, I'm so like blown away with.

246
00:12:47,065 --> 00:12:48,145
The way you think.

247
00:12:48,385 --> 00:12:53,065
Now my job is to then go, okay, how do we steer this thing back towards, uh,

248
00:12:53,065 --> 00:12:57,175
what's relevant to the audience and, and what's relevant to the client, and

249
00:12:57,175 --> 00:13:01,945
how can we make this thing as bulletproof and viable as possible without.

250
00:13:02,535 --> 00:13:05,505
Um, destroying the idea in any way, shape or form

251
00:13:05,775 --> 00:13:07,484
definitely is a challenge.

252
00:13:07,484 --> 00:13:09,194
And I, I like, I like what you said about

253
00:13:09,704 --> 00:13:12,405
being, you know, worried about your own job.

254
00:13:12,435 --> 00:13:14,204
I mean, I was, I was thinking as you were saying

255
00:13:14,204 --> 00:13:15,704
that like, I don't have to worry too much.

256
00:13:15,704 --> 00:13:18,464
I own the business, but also could they run out and run

257
00:13:18,464 --> 00:13:22,365
another company outside of me, you know, um, are they gonna

258
00:13:22,365 --> 00:13:25,724
be so good that they just take all my business away from me?

259
00:13:25,724 --> 00:13:29,474
Like I, I kind of want those people, um, 'cause you know, they're talented.

260
00:13:30,540 --> 00:13:32,069
Yeah, that's exactly right.

261
00:13:32,339 --> 00:13:36,720
It makes it dangerous and like, you know, listen, I mean, you don't

262
00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:41,610
want to, you want to develop a, a healthy dose of fear, right?

263
00:13:41,850 --> 00:13:46,290
There's, I think there's competitive nature in every creative.

264
00:13:46,290 --> 00:13:49,079
Creative departments naturally are going to be competitive.

265
00:13:50,730 --> 00:13:52,050
Otherwise they wouldn't be there.

266
00:13:52,380 --> 00:13:55,920
But there's a, there's a healthy dose of that and you manage that as well.

267
00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:59,430
You don't breed a, an environment where everybody's after each other.

268
00:13:59,670 --> 00:14:02,459
You breed in an environment where everybody helps each other and they

269
00:14:02,459 --> 00:14:06,060
want that help because they trust in each other and they know that they

270
00:14:06,060 --> 00:14:09,240
have different points of view or different ways of coming at the problem.

271
00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:15,990
So, um, you know, ultimately the goal is to, um, build

272
00:14:15,990 --> 00:14:19,949
a team of people that, um, you can at some point.

273
00:14:20,370 --> 00:14:23,819
Believe that you can hand over the reins too, right?

274
00:14:24,630 --> 00:14:27,150
Otherwise, like you're being selfish.

275
00:14:28,650 --> 00:14:29,010
Yeah.

276
00:14:29,460 --> 00:14:29,760
Yeah.

277
00:14:29,819 --> 00:14:31,560
And maybe a little jealous at the same time.

278
00:14:31,890 --> 00:14:33,689
Um, but yeah.

279
00:14:34,290 --> 00:14:37,740
Um, so let's talk about that team.

280
00:14:37,740 --> 00:14:38,250
Exactly.

281
00:14:38,250 --> 00:14:41,160
So, so what exactly, like, where, where does Arnold

282
00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:43,325
specialize in the industry for those who don't know?

283
00:14:45,495 --> 00:14:48,315
I think, um, you know, Arnold has had an incredible

284
00:14:48,315 --> 00:14:50,775
name in the industry for quite a long time.

285
00:14:50,805 --> 00:14:51,975
Very respectable.

286
00:14:52,065 --> 00:14:55,995
They were a small shop that became very big and big on the heels

287
00:14:55,995 --> 00:15:00,435
of doing incredible work for brands like Volkswagen and Truth,

288
00:15:01,155 --> 00:15:05,385
that that energy and that heritage and that DNA is still there.

289
00:15:05,385 --> 00:15:10,365
Even though we've gone through many different iterations, what we have now is.

290
00:15:10,555 --> 00:15:13,494
Um, a leadership team of people that have been there for quite a

291
00:15:13,494 --> 00:15:16,795
long time that truly love the brand, have lived the brand and been

292
00:15:16,795 --> 00:15:20,334
there for, you know, Val is one of the leaders and Sean's one of the

293
00:15:20,334 --> 00:15:24,114
leaders and they've combined been there for somewhere around 35 years.

294
00:15:24,415 --> 00:15:26,665
So, you know, you have people that really,

295
00:15:26,665 --> 00:15:28,974
truly believe in the brand and I think.

296
00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:32,670
Where there are smaller shops where they're taking their names off

297
00:15:32,670 --> 00:15:37,469
the doors to consolidate and become part of a bigger holding company.

298
00:15:37,469 --> 00:15:38,610
We're doing the opposite.

299
00:15:38,819 --> 00:15:41,280
We're loud and proud about the name on our door.

300
00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:45,449
We're loud and proud about the fact that we have an independent spirit.

301
00:15:45,780 --> 00:15:49,860
We are part of Hava that gives us, um, the strength and reach

302
00:15:49,860 --> 00:15:53,819
that we need, but we are still fiercely independent in the

303
00:15:53,819 --> 00:15:56,610
way we think about things and the way we approach things.

304
00:15:57,120 --> 00:15:57,824
And I think like we.

305
00:15:58,695 --> 00:16:01,995
You know, we, we also pride ourselves on building an environment

306
00:16:02,505 --> 00:16:07,485
for our clients where they can feel safe to take big risks.

307
00:16:07,995 --> 00:16:11,325
You know, and that's, that's because we have an incredibly

308
00:16:11,325 --> 00:16:16,245
sound strategy department who can help, uh, clients feel

309
00:16:16,245 --> 00:16:20,175
like any risks that they're taking are very, very calculated.

310
00:16:20,775 --> 00:16:25,515
So I think like, you know, it is a, is it a place that, um, we also love.

311
00:16:26,189 --> 00:16:30,090
We love the fact that, um, we don't follow culture.

312
00:16:30,930 --> 00:16:33,660
We kind of like try to redirect it.

313
00:16:33,900 --> 00:16:36,600
If you look at a lot of the progressive work, you know, there's

314
00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:40,439
reasons why, you know, flow, there's reasons why, you know, Dr.

315
00:16:40,439 --> 00:16:45,540
Rick, um, those two characters did not just like come out of thin

316
00:16:45,540 --> 00:16:49,709
air because of something happened in society and it was a reaction

317
00:16:49,709 --> 00:16:54,150
to that There, a dedication to an idea and a commitment to.

318
00:16:55,020 --> 00:17:00,300
Um, building those sub-brands over time and therefore become talked about

319
00:17:00,870 --> 00:17:04,409
in the spaces and places where we walk around, not just in ad industry.

320
00:17:04,409 --> 00:17:08,909
So, um, we often joke about like, you know, our goal

321
00:17:08,909 --> 00:17:11,940
isn't always to win awards at the big award shows.

322
00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:16,859
It's what's more rewarding for us is if the Uber driver knows your campaign.

323
00:17:18,285 --> 00:17:21,915
You know, the things that are in pop culture, um, the things that are

324
00:17:21,915 --> 00:17:25,694
well known and seen and liked, that's really, really important to us.

325
00:17:26,475 --> 00:17:26,745
Yeah.

326
00:17:27,375 --> 00:17:30,735
And I mean, what you've done with, um, or I guess Arnold, I know

327
00:17:30,735 --> 00:17:32,835
you've been a part of it as well, but like with the Progressive

328
00:17:32,835 --> 00:17:36,345
campaign, you mentioned, um, very memorable content from that.

329
00:17:36,405 --> 00:17:40,125
Um, and it's interesting that you say like you're, you're

330
00:17:40,125 --> 00:17:44,475
leading culture as opposed to just listening to culture, I think.

331
00:17:44,535 --> 00:17:47,955
Um, tell me, tell me more about like, how is that done?

332
00:17:47,955 --> 00:17:50,895
Is that just a, an amalgamation of the team as a whole

333
00:17:50,895 --> 00:17:54,375
and their understanding, or is there some actual.

334
00:17:55,035 --> 00:17:56,775
Formula or, or magic to it?

335
00:17:57,285 --> 00:17:59,385
I wish there was a formula or magic to it.

336
00:17:59,475 --> 00:18:02,355
Um, I think each client is different.

337
00:18:03,014 --> 00:18:04,575
And how you approach it.

338
00:18:04,784 --> 00:18:09,585
You know, for example, we have PNC bank and the way we approached

339
00:18:09,585 --> 00:18:12,254
it was entirely different than the way Progressive approached it.

340
00:18:12,345 --> 00:18:16,995
That when we did listen a little bit to what was going on, both in

341
00:18:16,995 --> 00:18:22,095
their culture within the organization and outside of the culture

342
00:18:22,395 --> 00:18:26,475
or outside of the bank, and started to Wai, there's some themes

343
00:18:26,475 --> 00:18:30,794
here that make this topic or who they are incredibly relevant.

344
00:18:31,780 --> 00:18:35,169
For this moment in time, but it's not just a flash in the pan.

345
00:18:35,169 --> 00:18:38,080
It is built upon a platform that we then expect

346
00:18:38,379 --> 00:18:40,300
to go off and do bigger and better things.

347
00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:42,939
But it just is a different approach.

348
00:18:43,149 --> 00:18:47,169
I think in the case of, you know, say Dr. Rick, it is back to

349
00:18:47,169 --> 00:18:51,310
a, it's back to a truth or an insight, and the insight was so

350
00:18:51,310 --> 00:18:55,385
powerful and so resonant that you'd be foolish to walk away from it.

351
00:18:56,054 --> 00:18:59,355
So, you know, the fact that you become your parents

352
00:18:59,774 --> 00:19:02,415
when you own your first home is such a truth.

353
00:19:02,745 --> 00:19:05,865
It's like, of course, I, I totally wash the garbage cans.

354
00:19:05,865 --> 00:19:09,554
I don't not know why I power wash garbage can garbage cans, but I,

355
00:19:09,554 --> 00:19:12,465
there's like suddenly this weird sense of pride that comes with it.

356
00:19:13,094 --> 00:19:17,715
And what you realize is like, because it's so resonant that, um.

357
00:19:18,020 --> 00:19:20,690
There's so many more gags built into it

358
00:19:20,929 --> 00:19:24,470
that you can build equity in this character.

359
00:19:24,860 --> 00:19:28,100
And in some ways like that is a brand that's big enough to build

360
00:19:28,100 --> 00:19:32,810
multiple equities and multiple characters over time and still have

361
00:19:32,810 --> 00:19:39,139
it be resonant or it's like, um, it's still re be representative of.

362
00:19:39,795 --> 00:19:41,775
Of Progressive right?

363
00:19:41,895 --> 00:19:46,035
It, it has the same tone, it has the same feel to it.

364
00:19:46,245 --> 00:19:49,335
And even though Flo and Dr. Rick are different

365
00:19:49,335 --> 00:19:52,390
people, it feels like it comes from the similar place.

366
00:19:53,475 --> 00:19:57,465
Yeah, I mean you can see that I think, um, you know, just with like my visual

367
00:19:57,465 --> 00:20:01,545
eye, I think like the aesthetic that you've all put with Progressive as a

368
00:20:01,545 --> 00:20:05,325
whole feels like there's a consistent branding that goes beyond the color.

369
00:20:05,325 --> 00:20:07,695
It could be the grading of the film, it could be whatever you do.

370
00:20:07,695 --> 00:20:09,885
It just, I get what you're saying.

371
00:20:09,885 --> 00:20:12,285
Like, it, it kind of has the same vibe.

372
00:20:12,345 --> 00:20:14,055
That's the easiest way to describe it.

373
00:20:14,385 --> 00:20:17,265
I know there's more technical terms, but, um, you know, down to

374
00:20:17,265 --> 00:20:20,055
the, down to the grades and everything you all use, it just feels.

375
00:20:20,490 --> 00:20:21,420
Very similar.

376
00:20:21,450 --> 00:20:26,610
Um, yeah, and Dr. Rick is really resident, um, as someone who's, you know,

377
00:20:26,610 --> 00:20:32,550
first time own owner and you know, a father of two young children, like becoming

378
00:20:32,550 --> 00:20:36,210
my parents is definitely something I'm very hypersensitive to right now.

379
00:20:36,210 --> 00:20:36,300
And.

380
00:20:37,205 --> 00:20:38,044
Guarantee.

381
00:20:38,044 --> 00:20:39,395
Like I am definitely getting there.

382
00:20:39,395 --> 00:20:40,745
I bought some shirts the other day and my

383
00:20:40,745 --> 00:20:42,605
wife just went, are you, are you turning?

384
00:20:42,635 --> 00:20:44,675
Are you, you really are turning 40, aren't you?

385
00:20:47,735 --> 00:20:50,615
I talk, I heard a comedian talking the other day about like,

386
00:20:50,824 --> 00:20:54,064
um, when he went and bought, uh, Costco pants and that, it was

387
00:20:54,064 --> 00:20:57,365
like the moment of like clarity because he no longer cared.

388
00:20:57,514 --> 00:20:58,835
Cos Costco's a good one.

389
00:20:58,865 --> 00:21:03,004
Um, mine wear some fly fishing, um, shirts that I, I

390
00:21:03,004 --> 00:21:05,764
like and she's like, you're buying fishing shirts that.

391
00:21:07,005 --> 00:21:10,395
No, I do fly fish, I actually do, but thankfully,

392
00:21:10,725 --> 00:21:12,915
thankfully there's some legitimacy to what I'm getting.

393
00:21:12,915 --> 00:21:16,035
But you know, they got the, the thing in the back, it looks like what

394
00:21:16,035 --> 00:21:19,395
everybody else wears, like vent, and I'm like, but it, they're so cool.

395
00:21:19,395 --> 00:21:20,145
It's hot out here.

396
00:21:20,145 --> 00:21:20,835
It's the south.

397
00:21:20,835 --> 00:21:21,405
Come on.

398
00:21:22,100 --> 00:21:22,580
Anyways.

399
00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:28,250
But yeah, that's definitely, I feel like that's, that's in the vein of that.

400
00:21:28,250 --> 00:21:30,590
And I've cringed more and more at those in a good

401
00:21:30,590 --> 00:21:33,560
way of just like, oh, they just, they resonate.

402
00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:37,670
They have that hit of like, how Yeah, that I've, I've seen that.

403
00:21:37,670 --> 00:21:37,850
Yeah.

404
00:21:37,850 --> 00:21:38,300
That's me.

405
00:21:38,360 --> 00:21:38,690
Okay.

406
00:21:38,690 --> 00:21:39,170
I'm sorry.

407
00:21:40,670 --> 00:21:45,410
No, and then like in, in many ways, like, I don't mean to make this thing all

408
00:21:45,410 --> 00:21:51,140
about jealousy, but like when the people in your own building are doing that.

409
00:21:51,675 --> 00:21:56,385
It drives the rest of the creatives, it drives the rest of the strategists, the

410
00:21:56,385 --> 00:22:00,375
account people, everybody drives a little bit harder to find that next thing.

411
00:22:01,155 --> 00:22:06,584
And so like I oversee PNC Bank, which is a massive piece of business.

412
00:22:07,094 --> 00:22:11,745
Um, and we did a whole brand new overhaul of their brand.

413
00:22:12,044 --> 00:22:13,695
And a lot of it is because like.

414
00:22:14,340 --> 00:22:17,700
We didn't want Progressive to be the only one in the

415
00:22:17,700 --> 00:22:21,240
building that had some work that people were pointing to.

416
00:22:21,540 --> 00:22:26,490
We wanted to be known for other things out there, and we, we believe that

417
00:22:26,850 --> 00:22:30,750
even with something like a big, huge bank account, you think would be the

418
00:22:30,750 --> 00:22:34,290
thing that would destroy culture, and it's actually doing the opposite.

419
00:22:34,695 --> 00:22:38,535
We are, we have a brand, we have an insurance company that's doing

420
00:22:38,535 --> 00:22:42,465
incredible work, and now we have a bank that's doing incredible work.

421
00:22:42,825 --> 00:22:45,525
And what that says about, I think what it says about

422
00:22:45,525 --> 00:22:49,515
Arnold is our ability to find those little nuggets in

423
00:22:49,515 --> 00:22:53,055
spaces in places that people wouldn't normally think.

424
00:22:53,385 --> 00:22:57,345
Our fruitful and rich, for me, I've worked

425
00:22:57,345 --> 00:22:59,715
in, I've worked on three banks in my career.

426
00:22:59,985 --> 00:23:01,125
I love banking.

427
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:03,930
Like hand it to me all day long.

428
00:23:03,930 --> 00:23:07,290
And the reason is because people like money is emotional.

429
00:23:08,010 --> 00:23:12,690
Like it is a big, rich, fertile place to play.

430
00:23:12,990 --> 00:23:16,650
So like I absolutely adore going into that space.

431
00:23:18,045 --> 00:23:18,315
Yeah.

432
00:23:19,274 --> 00:23:20,175
Yeah, banking.

433
00:23:20,235 --> 00:23:25,335
Um, I don't have a lot of experience with banking industry stuff, but, um, I,

434
00:23:25,540 --> 00:23:29,504
I, I was a, I was a financial advisor at Northwestern Mutual for a little while.

435
00:23:29,835 --> 00:23:32,955
Um, but that's, that's about as far as it goes for me.

436
00:23:33,375 --> 00:23:37,034
Um, but it's, yeah, I mean, yeah, I guess, I guess it's kind of far.

437
00:23:37,365 --> 00:23:39,885
Um, is that definitely more in the insurance realm?

438
00:23:39,915 --> 00:23:41,534
That's where I really am trying to get to.

439
00:23:41,534 --> 00:23:43,815
It's like I've had that experience, but yeah.

440
00:23:43,815 --> 00:23:45,825
I mean, banks are, you know.

441
00:23:46,304 --> 00:23:47,685
Yeah, they're, they're important.

442
00:23:47,685 --> 00:23:50,564
I mean, where would we be without our money being stored somewhere?

443
00:23:50,564 --> 00:23:50,835
So

444
00:23:53,054 --> 00:23:56,715
it's a very sensitive subject for people, right?

445
00:23:56,745 --> 00:24:01,485
It's like the number one reason why, um, divorce is happening.

446
00:24:01,485 --> 00:24:05,985
It's like, it is just somehow, it's always, it is just been taboo and it's just.

447
00:24:06,930 --> 00:24:10,500
Wrought with a lot of, with baggage that comes with it.

448
00:24:10,500 --> 00:24:16,020
And so, you know, to, to bring in a bank that has an empathy advantage

449
00:24:16,020 --> 00:24:21,090
that tries to understand people, um, better without just saying you're more

450
00:24:21,090 --> 00:24:25,650
than a number to do it in a really clever and interesting way was our goal.

451
00:24:26,685 --> 00:24:28,755
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460
00:25:07,065 --> 00:25:08,175
Well, tell me a little bit more.

461
00:25:08,175 --> 00:25:11,025
I noticed, um, you had done some stuff with Steve Stricker

462
00:25:11,085 --> 00:25:14,715
and, um, stuff before the, uh, the PNC championship.

463
00:25:15,105 --> 00:25:17,955
What was, what was kind of the purpose of showing his boring side?

464
00:25:18,435 --> 00:25:22,185
Well, um, I could probably take a little bit of a step

465
00:25:22,185 --> 00:25:25,995
back for those who don't really know the campaign really.

466
00:25:26,565 --> 00:25:30,015
Um, when PNC came to us, they were the sixth largest bank.

467
00:25:30,315 --> 00:25:33,465
Um, they were being outspent 10 to one.

468
00:25:34,185 --> 00:25:38,775
Um, and when we looked at the landscape, you're looking at

469
00:25:38,775 --> 00:25:43,545
it, uh, you're looking at Afin financial category where banks

470
00:25:43,545 --> 00:25:48,225
are failing, people are doing shady things with finances.

471
00:25:48,855 --> 00:25:53,235
Um, we, you know, TD Bank has a, has been.

472
00:25:54,105 --> 00:25:56,834
Fine for, uh, laundering money.

473
00:25:57,225 --> 00:26:01,215
So like financial institutions didn't have the most credibility, so

474
00:26:01,215 --> 00:26:05,235
we needed to come into us, into that space and kind of reset that.

475
00:26:05,294 --> 00:26:08,445
It seemed to us that a lot of people were playing fast and loose

476
00:26:08,445 --> 00:26:13,155
with money and, and especially when you looked at like, um.

477
00:26:13,574 --> 00:26:16,095
There's a lot of financial advisors, so to

478
00:26:16,095 --> 00:26:18,495
speak on TikTok, that are giving you advice.

479
00:26:18,945 --> 00:26:21,435
Um, and I think a lot of people have financial fomo.

480
00:26:21,435 --> 00:26:22,485
They want to get rich quick.

481
00:26:22,935 --> 00:26:26,564
And so when we did a lot of stakeholders at p

482
00:26:26,865 --> 00:26:30,495
stakeholder interviews at PNC, we heard this word a lot.

483
00:26:30,794 --> 00:26:31,695
It was like, boring.

484
00:26:31,754 --> 00:26:32,355
We're boring.

485
00:26:32,970 --> 00:26:34,800
They were apologizing for being boring.

486
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,560
They were like, well, you know, this company's kind of boring.

487
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,500
Well, we would never do something like that 'cause we're a little boring.

488
00:26:41,460 --> 00:26:45,420
And I remember my ears, P per ping, perking up and saying, wait.

489
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:49,410
Why are you guys apologizing for this?

490
00:26:49,470 --> 00:26:51,840
This is like your superpower in a day and age

491
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,570
where everybody's taking risks with people's money.

492
00:26:54,930 --> 00:26:58,290
The reason why you've been here for 160 years is because you're boring you.

493
00:26:58,350 --> 00:27:00,360
That means you're doing things the right way.

494
00:27:00,870 --> 00:27:05,100
That means you're being like safe and steadfast and pragmatic.

495
00:27:05,250 --> 00:27:07,740
The things I want you to be with my money, like.

496
00:27:08,475 --> 00:27:11,235
I don't want anything else, like, you know what I mean?

497
00:27:11,534 --> 00:27:17,595
So the notion of being brilliantly boring since 1865 was born, it was

498
00:27:17,595 --> 00:27:21,225
just this notion of like, let's lean into our DNA, let's tell people

499
00:27:21,225 --> 00:27:26,415
why we exist, why we think our philosophy on finances is really,

500
00:27:26,415 --> 00:27:32,475
really important, especially in this day and age to help to help.

501
00:27:32,745 --> 00:27:33,075
Um.

502
00:27:34,530 --> 00:27:35,730
Define that.

503
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:39,240
We went into the sponsorship place and it works really well

504
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:43,440
in the sponsorship place because, um, when you look at like

505
00:27:44,159 --> 00:27:48,210
sports in general, it's celebrating the walk-off home runs.

506
00:27:48,210 --> 00:27:50,280
It's celebrating the poster rising dunk.

507
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:54,840
It's, it's celebrating the, the incredible athletic feats.

508
00:27:55,649 --> 00:28:01,260
But no one celebrates the details, the minutia, the grind

509
00:28:01,530 --> 00:28:06,659
behind the closed doors that go into those incredible feats.

510
00:28:06,959 --> 00:28:11,610
So we created a, a subseries, um, for our sports sponsorships.

511
00:28:11,610 --> 00:28:12,729
That is, um, that.

512
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:17,659
The boring before the brilliance and it accentuates the hard

513
00:28:17,659 --> 00:28:21,590
work and the simplicity of that hard work, uh, the repetition

514
00:28:21,590 --> 00:28:23,720
of that hard work that, uh, these athletes go through.

515
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:27,949
So Steve Stricker, part of the PGA Track championship was one of them.

516
00:28:28,340 --> 00:28:31,070
Um, we did Paul Skeens, who is arguably

517
00:28:31,070 --> 00:28:33,169
the best pitcher in Major League baseball.

518
00:28:33,169 --> 00:28:37,459
He is on the Pirates and we also did Scott Dixon, who is an indie car driver.

519
00:28:37,730 --> 00:28:39,470
And it works really, really well because.

520
00:28:39,730 --> 00:28:43,090
It's an easy get for consumers to go, oh, I get it.

521
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:47,710
All of the stuff that like doing the medicine ball

522
00:28:47,890 --> 00:28:51,310
thing against the wall over and over and over and over.

523
00:28:51,764 --> 00:28:56,355
Is actually a great correlation to how PNC approaches your finances,

524
00:28:56,625 --> 00:29:00,764
paying attention to the hard work that no one thinks is sexy.

525
00:29:01,095 --> 00:29:04,754
We think that stuff's sexy so that you can then go do the brilliant thing.

526
00:29:04,845 --> 00:29:08,084
So you can hit the walk off home run or the do the poster rising dunk.

527
00:29:08,415 --> 00:29:09,645
It totally makes sense.

528
00:29:09,705 --> 00:29:12,824
Um, and I mean, you know, when you, when you put it in those terms,

529
00:29:12,824 --> 00:29:17,985
I mean, it's very easy to think about how, at least for me, how um.

530
00:29:18,495 --> 00:29:21,735
You know how that would be of value, you know, to

531
00:29:21,735 --> 00:29:24,284
me thinking okay, you're doing the right stuff.

532
00:29:24,314 --> 00:29:27,585
'cause what you're also communicating is we're doing all the stuff that

533
00:29:27,585 --> 00:29:31,335
you would expect of these top level athletes before you know, their moment

534
00:29:31,335 --> 00:29:37,274
of brilliance in IndyCar or, um, you know, the MLB or PGA tour and like.

535
00:29:37,580 --> 00:29:42,020
All those things have a lot of value in showing that as well.

536
00:29:42,469 --> 00:29:44,629
Um, and you're doing it in kind of a, I would

537
00:29:44,629 --> 00:29:46,669
say somewhat of a prestigious format too.

538
00:29:46,669 --> 00:29:48,350
I think I read that you all were doing this with

539
00:29:48,350 --> 00:29:50,989
like the folks from 30 for 30, is that right?

540
00:29:51,350 --> 00:29:54,169
Uh, one of the production companies that we are using

541
00:29:54,169 --> 00:29:58,310
DLP on does some of the 30 for 30 stuff as well.

542
00:29:58,340 --> 00:29:59,510
Yeah, they're fantastic.

543
00:29:59,750 --> 00:30:02,929
It's also, think about what that says to the employee.

544
00:30:03,945 --> 00:30:06,735
One of the hardest parts about launching this campaign

545
00:30:06,735 --> 00:30:09,104
was like, everybody stops and goes, hold on a second.

546
00:30:09,524 --> 00:30:11,955
Does this mean we have to tell the employees that they're boring?

547
00:30:12,554 --> 00:30:14,324
Like, does this mean they have to admit to it?

548
00:30:14,955 --> 00:30:18,705
And the thing is you, it's like a little bit of yes, you do.

549
00:30:19,409 --> 00:30:22,800
It's the same re like words have been adopted

550
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:24,750
throughout the course of history, right?

551
00:30:24,750 --> 00:30:28,439
Like sick or bad, those things became really good.

552
00:30:28,710 --> 00:30:33,000
So it's not uncommon for people to twist a word and make

553
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:36,510
it a superpower or, or mean something really positive.

554
00:30:36,510 --> 00:30:40,649
So once they kind of got that, it gave them the excuse

555
00:30:40,649 --> 00:30:43,710
to be themselves, but to see it as a superpower.

556
00:30:43,740 --> 00:30:47,280
And then when you attach an athlete who they look up to.

557
00:30:47,965 --> 00:30:52,045
Saying the same thing and championing the same behaviors.

558
00:30:52,375 --> 00:30:54,955
It tells them that they're doing something right and gives

559
00:30:54,955 --> 00:30:58,345
them the kind of courage and spirit to say, yes, I am boring.

560
00:30:58,585 --> 00:31:01,225
And admitting that, um, and what that does

561
00:31:01,225 --> 00:31:04,915
provide for their customers is brilliant outcomes.

562
00:31:05,215 --> 00:31:07,735
And when you, and when you put it in that light, it sounds much more

563
00:31:07,735 --> 00:31:10,345
positive than just walking in and going, here's our new campaign.

564
00:31:10,615 --> 00:31:11,185
You're boring.

565
00:31:12,180 --> 00:31:12,810
Yeah.

566
00:31:12,870 --> 00:31:16,590
Yeah, it, well, it was, um, to be honest with you, the,

567
00:31:16,860 --> 00:31:20,460
I knew that this was gonna be a really, really hard sell.

568
00:31:20,820 --> 00:31:23,280
Um, you know, everybody perked up.

569
00:31:23,700 --> 00:31:25,410
It's one of those ideas that everyone kind

570
00:31:25,410 --> 00:31:27,720
of can't stop thinking about the next day.

571
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:31,170
But I think the biggest worry is like, how do we then take

572
00:31:31,170 --> 00:31:33,630
this to an organization and tell them they're gonna be some

573
00:31:33,690 --> 00:31:36,780
admit to something that they, uh, thought was a bad thing.

574
00:31:37,260 --> 00:31:40,530
Um, so we wrote, uh, an internal.

575
00:31:40,889 --> 00:31:43,139
Brand book for the employees.

576
00:31:43,139 --> 00:31:46,470
It was the very first thing we did to prove that

577
00:31:46,470 --> 00:31:49,320
you could speak about this in really fun terms.

578
00:31:50,459 --> 00:31:52,800
Um, and make people feel like it's an

579
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:56,189
aspirational thing to want to be or admit to be.

580
00:31:56,790 --> 00:32:00,300
Um, and that's why the tone of the campaign is still lighthearted.

581
00:32:00,570 --> 00:32:03,689
It's still a good energy to everything that we do.

582
00:32:04,020 --> 00:32:08,040
There's nothing that we purposely go out and be boring about unless

583
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:11,820
we're gonna do it tongue and with our tongue firmly planted in our cheek.

584
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:15,990
So it's like we don't get bogged down and let that word weigh us down.

585
00:32:15,990 --> 00:32:17,610
We actually elevate it.

586
00:32:17,905 --> 00:32:21,205
And help everybody else see what the possibilities are.

587
00:32:21,735 --> 00:32:24,645
Yeah, I think, I think if you're gonna go for such a,

588
00:32:24,915 --> 00:32:28,185
I'd say yeah, risky, kind of risky marketing strategy.

589
00:32:28,185 --> 00:32:31,215
You, you do have to be fully behind it and make sure that

590
00:32:31,215 --> 00:32:33,885
everybody else on the client side is fully behind it.

591
00:32:33,885 --> 00:32:35,565
'cause gosh, I can't imagine going in and,

592
00:32:36,045 --> 00:32:39,645
um, half-assing that kind of a, an execution.

593
00:32:40,155 --> 00:32:40,785
That's right.

594
00:32:40,785 --> 00:32:42,435
I mean, I, I li listen, I give all the

595
00:32:42,435 --> 00:32:44,775
credit in the world to the CMO, Jim Garba.

596
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,780
She, she knew right out of the gate that she

597
00:32:47,780 --> 00:32:50,930
needed to take the executive team along a journey.

598
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:56,810
Um, and taking them on a, on that journey meant that, that it, that was not some

599
00:32:56,810 --> 00:33:01,340
crazy unveiling moment that they went, whoa, we had nothing to do with this.

600
00:33:01,460 --> 00:33:05,044
It was a. It was a, it was a, I wouldn't say a long process, but

601
00:33:05,044 --> 00:33:08,165
a very thought out, methodical process in which we brought them

602
00:33:08,165 --> 00:33:12,455
along so that it did not feel like it was a shock and awe moment.

603
00:33:13,024 --> 00:33:16,955
Um, on, and instead it was a moment where they were like.

604
00:33:18,645 --> 00:33:19,275
That's us.

605
00:33:19,335 --> 00:33:21,165
And then of course we did the data behind it.

606
00:33:21,945 --> 00:33:23,145
You know, they're numbers people.

607
00:33:23,145 --> 00:33:25,005
So that stuff's pretty effective.

608
00:33:25,005 --> 00:33:27,735
And when we prove that it was more effective than some of the

609
00:33:27,735 --> 00:33:31,275
other work that we had entertained, then you know, it's easy.

610
00:33:31,395 --> 00:33:35,985
It was an easy decision because again, the world might think that's a clever ad

611
00:33:35,985 --> 00:33:40,305
campaign, and that's things we need to work on as we move forward, is proving

612
00:33:40,305 --> 00:33:44,835
that we have this boring philosophy in our products and our services, but.

613
00:33:45,215 --> 00:33:48,035
It felt good to us because it is in their

614
00:33:48,035 --> 00:33:50,645
DNA, it felt incredibly authentic to them.

615
00:33:50,705 --> 00:33:55,625
And that's why, you know, I don't, I don't typically like to

616
00:33:55,625 --> 00:33:59,495
do things that are just feel like they're clever ad campaigns.

617
00:33:59,855 --> 00:34:03,875
Um, they have to come from, we go back to that truth or that insight.

618
00:34:04,445 --> 00:34:06,425
Um, something that feels grounded in who

619
00:34:06,425 --> 00:34:08,615
they actually are and they can feel proud of.

620
00:34:09,330 --> 00:34:09,659
Yeah.

621
00:34:10,319 --> 00:34:13,049
Yeah, I think, um, I mean that's an interesting thing about

622
00:34:13,049 --> 00:34:16,080
working with big brands is you're not just affecting, you

623
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:20,219
know, a business owner and their, you know, their small team.

624
00:34:20,219 --> 00:34:24,149
You're affecting, um, you know, lives of hundreds if not thousands of

625
00:34:24,149 --> 00:34:28,799
people and, you know, potentially with a negative campaign or with a flop.

626
00:34:28,799 --> 00:34:31,739
Like, you have all kinds of negative impacts with that.

627
00:34:31,739 --> 00:34:35,580
And the true is, you know, the same is true for the opposite as well.

628
00:34:35,580 --> 00:34:37,495
So I could definitely see that challenge.

629
00:34:38,475 --> 00:34:40,574
Yeah, when you, when you were talking about getting on

630
00:34:40,574 --> 00:34:43,364
board with things, I remember being at at and t years ago

631
00:34:43,395 --> 00:34:46,755
and in the internal campaign was, we can help with this.

632
00:34:46,755 --> 00:34:48,165
And the way that they rolled it out was

633
00:34:48,165 --> 00:34:51,014
by using the song, what Does The Fox say?

634
00:34:51,014 --> 00:34:53,685
And then using the words, we can help this over top of it.

635
00:34:54,134 --> 00:34:57,225
And I've never felt less bought into a company like.

636
00:35:00,004 --> 00:35:02,975
Like never felt less bought into something in my life.

637
00:35:02,975 --> 00:35:06,185
So props to you all for taking the time and effort to do

638
00:35:06,185 --> 00:35:08,585
it the right way and, and really get the team to buy in.

639
00:35:08,944 --> 00:35:09,245
Yeah.

640
00:35:09,245 --> 00:35:11,645
You try to, and then listen, we have a long way to go.

641
00:35:11,770 --> 00:35:13,085
It, it never ends.

642
00:35:13,145 --> 00:35:17,015
Um, you constantly hear where it's, where the idea isn't working

643
00:35:17,015 --> 00:35:21,575
and where it is and you know, you course correct and, um, make

644
00:35:21,575 --> 00:35:26,345
iterative changes so that people, um, do feel heard and bought in.

645
00:35:26,375 --> 00:35:28,055
But ultimately if, um.

646
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:32,160
You know, it's a business that, it's a service business at the end of the day.

647
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:36,720
And if the people who are conducting that service don't exude the,

648
00:35:36,900 --> 00:35:40,380
the virtues of the brand to the consumer, then we have a problem.

649
00:35:40,770 --> 00:35:42,510
And so we gotta get them on board.

650
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:44,070
Absolutely.

651
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:44,730
Yeah.

652
00:35:45,300 --> 00:35:47,040
And once you do, it's, the

653
00:35:47,100 --> 00:35:47,820
sky's the limit.

654
00:35:48,510 --> 00:35:48,900
Right?

655
00:35:48,900 --> 00:35:49,560
Exactly.

656
00:35:49,650 --> 00:35:50,220
Exactly.

657
00:35:50,490 --> 00:35:52,830
Well, it's amazing how many like this is, this is

658
00:35:52,830 --> 00:35:57,420
a PNC in general was not, um, not a company that.

659
00:35:57,870 --> 00:36:01,440
Built a brand prior to this that they had maybe not

660
00:36:01,830 --> 00:36:04,350
invested in marketing like they are investing now.

661
00:36:04,710 --> 00:36:07,860
And so it's really, really interesting to see now what they

662
00:36:07,860 --> 00:36:11,910
understand the power of Mark true, good brand marketing can do.

663
00:36:12,330 --> 00:36:15,780
And so there's a lot of hand raisers, there's a lot of people with ideas,

664
00:36:15,780 --> 00:36:18,930
a lot of people coming to the table saying, where's my version of this?

665
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:20,730
And that's exactly what you want.

666
00:36:20,790 --> 00:36:23,760
And it happened really quickly, which is exciting.

667
00:36:23,790 --> 00:36:26,035
'cause now as you said, the sky's the limit.

668
00:36:27,110 --> 00:36:27,440
Yeah.

669
00:36:27,590 --> 00:36:30,530
I mean, again, and another good point too, a lot of these older

670
00:36:30,530 --> 00:36:33,980
businesses that have been around since forever, like yeah,

671
00:36:33,980 --> 00:36:37,280
they're, they're known by name and that's what they operate off of.

672
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:40,700
And they slap their name on sport sporting events and bus

673
00:36:40,970 --> 00:36:44,720
businesses and buildings and, you know, donations to things,

674
00:36:44,720 --> 00:36:47,930
but they never really have a voice or a messaging beyond that.

675
00:36:47,930 --> 00:36:51,200
So, yeah, that's, that's another interesting point of that.

676
00:36:51,605 --> 00:36:53,975
Well, they, they have no reason to disrupt.

677
00:36:54,245 --> 00:36:54,575
Right?

678
00:36:54,575 --> 00:36:57,605
They have the media dollars to, to just continue

679
00:36:57,605 --> 00:37:00,755
to, uh, wheat paste the world, whereas we don't.

680
00:37:00,815 --> 00:37:01,085
Right.

681
00:37:01,085 --> 00:37:04,625
And we're a challenger brand, and I love, be any creative, loves to be

682
00:37:05,165 --> 00:37:09,695
working with a challenger brand because then you don't have the media dollars.

683
00:37:09,695 --> 00:37:11,945
You have to be scrappy or you have to be smarter.

684
00:37:11,945 --> 00:37:13,355
You have to be more provocative.

685
00:37:13,385 --> 00:37:17,195
You have to, um, creativity is that, is the, uh.

686
00:37:17,755 --> 00:37:19,375
The ability for things.

687
00:37:19,375 --> 00:37:23,035
They create these unfair advantages or, um,

688
00:37:23,125 --> 00:37:26,634
spread the word faster than even media dollars do.

689
00:37:27,205 --> 00:37:31,645
So I, I think they know that and they're bought in, which is exciting.

690
00:37:32,245 --> 00:37:32,965
Yeah, for sure.

691
00:37:33,565 --> 00:37:37,855
Definitely, definitely a, um, fascinating world to be in with

692
00:37:37,855 --> 00:37:41,215
the more boring companies of the world, if I could say so.

693
00:37:42,970 --> 00:37:43,259
Yeah.

694
00:37:44,295 --> 00:37:44,865
That's cool.

695
00:37:44,895 --> 00:37:48,375
Um, so let's, let's talk, you mentioned earlier that Arnold

696
00:37:48,375 --> 00:37:52,635
is known by name, um, and obviously, I mean, it's got a

697
00:37:52,635 --> 00:37:55,575
reputation, but where, where did the name Arnold come from?

698
00:37:55,575 --> 00:37:56,415
Is that the founder?

699
00:37:56,415 --> 00:37:59,475
Is that who, how did that name come about?

700
00:37:59,655 --> 00:38:00,465
I guess I should say

701
00:38:01,425 --> 00:38:03,825
in an era when, um.

702
00:38:04,305 --> 00:38:06,255
You know, ad agencies were popping up all

703
00:38:06,255 --> 00:38:09,465
over the place with their last names on doors.

704
00:38:09,825 --> 00:38:14,055
He felt like that was a mistake, that he wanted to be on a first

705
00:38:14,055 --> 00:38:18,885
name basis relationship with his clients, um, and with his people.

706
00:38:19,065 --> 00:38:23,790
And so the last name was not something he wanted to do and wanted to stick

707
00:38:23,830 --> 00:38:27,975
with the, with the first name, which I think is like, just this really simple.

708
00:38:27,975 --> 00:38:30,405
That's the guy that you immediately know.

709
00:38:30,944 --> 00:38:34,605
Understands how to communicate with his audience,

710
00:38:34,665 --> 00:38:36,705
like right outta the gate, he's in the right industry.

711
00:38:37,214 --> 00:38:38,775
Yeah, absolutely.

712
00:38:38,775 --> 00:38:42,525
That's, that is a clever, I mean, very, very clever way to do it.

713
00:38:42,525 --> 00:38:45,315
And I You saying that me reminds me of a time when I

714
00:38:45,315 --> 00:38:48,734
was in college where a friend of mine and I were talking

715
00:38:48,734 --> 00:38:51,525
about art, art galleries and going to our art galleries.

716
00:38:51,525 --> 00:38:52,964
I said, we should just start an art gallery

717
00:38:52,964 --> 00:38:55,035
called Gallery Letters, followed by numbers.

718
00:38:56,040 --> 00:39:00,030
Yeah, because it's just, it's that same thing of like,

719
00:39:00,030 --> 00:39:03,060
everybody's doing the same thing, everybody's calling

720
00:39:03,060 --> 00:39:05,250
it the same thing, and, and you need to stand out.

721
00:39:05,700 --> 00:39:07,920
Um, so that, that makes a lot of sense.

722
00:39:08,250 --> 00:39:13,110
But it's also like, just like the philosophy alone is, is a good one, right?

723
00:39:13,110 --> 00:39:17,250
You have Doyle Dane, Burnbach, you have Burnett, you have Gray, you

724
00:39:17,250 --> 00:39:21,000
know, all the Ogilvy, and then all of a sudden a guy comes in and

725
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:24,660
you, we've seen that even Ogilvy eventually came out with David.

726
00:39:25,035 --> 00:39:28,245
But it was interesting that you have a guy who's like, I,

727
00:39:28,275 --> 00:39:32,055
I I, I don't want to be on that, uh, level with people.

728
00:39:32,055 --> 00:39:33,915
I wanna be on a first name basis with people.

729
00:39:33,975 --> 00:39:37,815
That's a, a build more personal relationships

730
00:39:37,815 --> 00:39:39,915
with our clients, which makes sense.

731
00:39:40,245 --> 00:39:40,425
Yeah.

732
00:39:40,515 --> 00:39:43,755
And from a marketer's perspective, I mean, to me, that's just a giant dog

733
00:39:43,755 --> 00:39:46,665
whistle that he understands positioning, and that's someone I wanna work with.

734
00:39:46,845 --> 00:39:47,205
That's right.

735
00:39:47,445 --> 00:39:47,955
That's right.

736
00:39:48,105 --> 00:39:48,435
That's right.

737
00:39:48,900 --> 00:39:49,710
That's great.

738
00:39:49,740 --> 00:39:53,130
Um, and, and it is really cool too 'cause I was expecting more of the answer of

739
00:39:53,130 --> 00:39:58,620
like, oh, Arnold is just it, it was the founder's last name and blah blah blah.

740
00:39:58,620 --> 00:40:00,960
But the fact that it's first name and he positioned

741
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:03,180
it that way to me is like, that's brilliant.

742
00:40:03,210 --> 00:40:05,070
That's, especially in the day and age, he was

743
00:40:05,070 --> 00:40:07,170
probably coming up like that Makes a lot of sense.

744
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:09,090
Um, and that's really cool.

745
00:40:09,870 --> 00:40:10,290
Okay.

746
00:40:10,379 --> 00:40:11,069
Well, great.

747
00:40:11,399 --> 00:40:14,040
Um, well we're getting towards the end of the conversation, always

748
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:18,000
like to ask, you know, just what's top of mind for you right now as

749
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:22,109
we look into the next year, maybe two years, um, in this industry.

750
00:40:22,109 --> 00:40:25,169
What kind of things are you looking at going, oh, this could be exciting,

751
00:40:25,169 --> 00:40:28,649
or, um, this might be a challenge just in the industry as a whole.

752
00:40:28,770 --> 00:40:33,000
I think we're probably, I don't know, maybe

753
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:35,520
we're standing on a precipice of what.

754
00:40:35,940 --> 00:40:41,100
The power of creativity is, and whether or not it will withstand the

755
00:40:41,100 --> 00:40:48,510
influences of data, will it on, will it withstand the influences of ai?

756
00:40:49,260 --> 00:40:54,150
Um, will it continue to withstand fear?

757
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:55,620
All of those things.

758
00:40:55,710 --> 00:40:58,560
Um, you know, ultimately at the end of the day.

759
00:40:59,715 --> 00:41:03,585
You know, the riskiest thing you can do is be ignorable.

760
00:41:03,945 --> 00:41:09,195
Um, so for me, I constantly, no matter what happens with the

761
00:41:09,195 --> 00:41:13,635
landscape, is to make sure that we're building an environment

762
00:41:13,635 --> 00:41:18,555
where our clients are feeling like they can take that risk.

763
00:41:18,555 --> 00:41:19,245
And if data.

764
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:23,819
Backs that up, then I'm all for it if it gets in the way.

765
00:41:23,819 --> 00:41:27,060
And that becomes our priority because we're just excited

766
00:41:27,060 --> 00:41:33,089
that we can create 17 versions of a direct mailer in, in a

767
00:41:33,299 --> 00:41:36,600
blink of a second and hit 17 different people accurately.

768
00:41:37,259 --> 00:41:39,235
Um, if we get to that place where we.

769
00:41:40,665 --> 00:41:43,125
We're kind of screwed and we've forgotten our way.

770
00:41:43,215 --> 00:41:48,645
So I, my hope is that, um, creativity is still going to be the ultimate,

771
00:41:49,065 --> 00:41:54,555
um, separator and differentiator and all of the other tools that we have are

772
00:41:54,555 --> 00:41:58,580
still just going to be there in support roles versus taking the lead roles.

773
00:41:59,385 --> 00:41:59,655
Yeah.

774
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:03,945
I, I hope you're, I hope you're correct and I, I really

775
00:42:03,945 --> 00:42:07,365
do think that, you know, I think we're gonna see a lot

776
00:42:07,365 --> 00:42:09,255
of the technology that we're talking about right now.

777
00:42:09,255 --> 00:42:10,575
And I know we're talking in vague terms,

778
00:42:10,575 --> 00:42:13,725
but AI and things like that, you know, um.

779
00:42:14,685 --> 00:42:18,435
It's hard not to talk about it right now, but I do think that like, it's

780
00:42:18,435 --> 00:42:21,674
almost like the way I view, it's almost like, you know how when early

781
00:42:21,674 --> 00:42:25,725
CGI came out and you would see things, you'd be like, oh, that's fake.

782
00:42:26,265 --> 00:42:29,115
Or you'd have, even to this day, like you can all

783
00:42:29,115 --> 00:42:31,815
almost always tell when something isn't right.

784
00:42:31,815 --> 00:42:34,335
If you look at a robot who's trying to impersonate a human.

785
00:42:34,725 --> 00:42:36,259
If you've seen some of those hyper-realistic

786
00:42:36,259 --> 00:42:38,174
models, they still look like a robot.

787
00:42:38,205 --> 00:42:41,654
There's still something not right about 'em, and we're still in that

788
00:42:41,654 --> 00:42:44,835
uncanny valley where most of what's happening and being creative

789
00:42:44,835 --> 00:42:48,795
right now, you can tell when it's not being produced or directed by a

790
00:42:48,795 --> 00:42:52,665
real person versus when someone actually puts the time and energy and

791
00:42:52,665 --> 00:42:55,995
effort into maybe using that tool in a way that could be beneficial.

792
00:42:56,444 --> 00:42:56,835
Um.

793
00:42:57,075 --> 00:42:59,475
You know, I think about some of the YouTube creators that

794
00:42:59,475 --> 00:43:02,654
actually create good content with some of those tools.

795
00:43:02,654 --> 00:43:04,665
But then the antithesis of that where you

796
00:43:04,665 --> 00:43:06,734
get the AI slot that comes out as well.

797
00:43:07,245 --> 00:43:07,785
So

798
00:43:08,294 --> 00:43:10,634
I think there's gonna be like, you know, there's

799
00:43:10,634 --> 00:43:13,484
a difference between building something at scale.

800
00:43:13,905 --> 00:43:20,355
And allowing AI to help you with that is one thing that's, we cannot stop that.

801
00:43:20,355 --> 00:43:21,735
We are not going to stop that.

802
00:43:21,765 --> 00:43:26,445
It's going to be an incredibly productive tool for all, for us all.

803
00:43:26,805 --> 00:43:33,075
It's the ai, how it infuses itself into production is the place

804
00:43:33,075 --> 00:43:37,395
that I'm gonna be the most fascinated to see how, how it plays out.

805
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:39,320
You know, for, for instance, like.

806
00:43:40,605 --> 00:43:43,154
I am, I might be one of these people that's

807
00:43:43,215 --> 00:43:45,285
on an island here, but I'm excited for it.

808
00:43:45,345 --> 00:43:49,245
I really am, because like as a creative person, it now

809
00:43:49,245 --> 00:43:52,365
gives me the excuse to do just about anything I want.

810
00:43:52,605 --> 00:43:58,365
You know, like if I want like a pirate porcupine

811
00:43:58,694 --> 00:44:02,055
with a peg leg to shoot quills at people.

812
00:44:02,055 --> 00:44:04,965
And every time those quills hit people, they go rg.

813
00:44:06,930 --> 00:44:07,859
I can do it.

814
00:44:08,189 --> 00:44:09,930
I like, I literally can do it.

815
00:44:09,959 --> 00:44:14,399
Like, whereas before the process of doing something like that would've

816
00:44:14,399 --> 00:44:18,569
taken months and months and months and hundreds of thousands of dollars.

817
00:44:18,990 --> 00:44:24,569
So like the, the tool now just opens up the possibilities of what we can do.

818
00:44:25,020 --> 00:44:28,410
Um, and yes, the tools haven't quite gotten to a place where

819
00:44:28,410 --> 00:44:31,589
they're perfect, but they're getting there really, really fast.

820
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:34,290
Um, so I, for 1:00 AM.

821
00:44:34,905 --> 00:44:39,225
Thrilled to see what, um, what handcuffs are gonna be taken

822
00:44:39,225 --> 00:44:44,205
off, um, when the stigma is going to go away about using it.

823
00:44:45,075 --> 00:44:49,455
And when we are actually truly gonna be allowed to play and have fun with it.

824
00:44:50,145 --> 00:44:50,415
Yeah.

825
00:44:51,225 --> 00:44:51,585
Yeah.

826
00:44:51,615 --> 00:44:54,765
I, the stigma's an interesting part of it too.

827
00:44:54,765 --> 00:44:58,815
I'm, I'm very curious about because, um, yeah, there's definitely still,

828
00:44:58,815 --> 00:45:01,605
I mean, again, it's the, on Candy Valley, like you can almost always tell

829
00:45:01,605 --> 00:45:06,975
when what was used there was ai, um, when you can't, it's kinda wild.

830
00:45:07,335 --> 00:45:08,415
But, um.

831
00:45:09,044 --> 00:45:12,884
But yeah, I think that there's, yeah, a lot of advantages at, at the very least,

832
00:45:12,884 --> 00:45:16,185
I'm just glad that I no longer have to draw stick figures for storyboards.

833
00:45:16,665 --> 00:45:17,865
'cause that's about what I've been doing in

834
00:45:17,865 --> 00:45:20,910
the past, especially internally, I'm like.

835
00:45:22,035 --> 00:45:26,745
It's not going to take the jobs of those that, uh, think creatively.

836
00:45:26,805 --> 00:45:28,424
I just don't think that's possible.

837
00:45:28,995 --> 00:45:32,055
Um, you tell, tell AI to sit down and write a

838
00:45:32,055 --> 00:45:34,545
Seinfeld episode, it's not going to be able to do it.

839
00:45:34,575 --> 00:45:35,295
It just isn't.

840
00:45:35,714 --> 00:45:40,275
So like it for those people that are worried about that part of it, I just,

841
00:45:40,275 --> 00:45:43,815
I just don't see a, a world in which that's going to happen anytime soon.

842
00:45:44,415 --> 00:45:48,795
Um, because it is, it takes a really unique.

843
00:45:50,055 --> 00:45:54,135
Mind to distill and find that little nugget that we were talking about

844
00:45:54,135 --> 00:45:57,435
before, that little truth, that little like thing that makes you laugh.

845
00:45:57,945 --> 00:45:59,955
Um, and I don't think it's capable of doing that

846
00:45:59,955 --> 00:46:05,025
yet, but it is capable of making explosions.

847
00:46:05,985 --> 00:46:09,945
You know, without actually exploding something right there, I can

848
00:46:09,945 --> 00:46:13,185
get helicopter shots without going up in a helicopter anymore.

849
00:46:13,305 --> 00:46:17,895
And so what I, when I was a young creative and I was told

850
00:46:17,895 --> 00:46:21,825
to budget, that's basically putting me into a constraint.

851
00:46:22,485 --> 00:46:26,775
Now, maybe I don't have those constraints and I'm, I'm fascinated by that.

852
00:46:26,955 --> 00:46:28,905
The lack of limits I think is really cool.

853
00:46:28,905 --> 00:46:31,275
And I've seen some fascinating stuff with AI that makes

854
00:46:31,275 --> 00:46:34,275
me go, I, I want to get, I'm a little jealous of that.

855
00:46:34,275 --> 00:46:38,325
I want to go do what that guy's doing, um, because it's really cool and

856
00:46:38,325 --> 00:46:42,315
you recognize it's one person and it's just like they might have spent

857
00:46:42,315 --> 00:46:46,095
a hundred dollars on software to do it, and they have a whole product.

858
00:46:46,095 --> 00:46:46,815
That's impressive.

859
00:46:46,815 --> 00:46:48,980
So I always love seeing that stuff.

860
00:46:49,710 --> 00:46:50,340
That's cool.

861
00:46:50,430 --> 00:46:51,150
That's really cool.

862
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:53,160
Um, man.

863
00:46:53,190 --> 00:46:56,220
Well, James, thank you so much for, for being on today.

864
00:46:56,220 --> 00:46:59,160
Before we wrap up, I always like to end with a question.

865
00:46:59,190 --> 00:47:02,100
Um, what brand do you admire the most right now?

866
00:47:02,100 --> 00:47:04,110
Or maybe a better question for this conversation is

867
00:47:04,500 --> 00:47:06,390
what brand are you the most jealous of right now?

868
00:47:07,950 --> 00:47:11,070
Ooh, maybe Uber Eats.

869
00:47:11,070 --> 00:47:13,565
I think they're doing incredible work with the NFL.

870
00:47:14,370 --> 00:47:16,140
Um, liquid Death.

871
00:47:16,140 --> 00:47:20,130
I love just because they're brave and honest and consistent.

872
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:25,680
Heinz ketchup, like going back to we're talking about insurance and.

873
00:47:26,115 --> 00:47:30,765
Banks, like nobody thought Heinz was an opportunity.

874
00:47:31,275 --> 00:47:32,445
It's just a condiment.

875
00:47:32,475 --> 00:47:32,895
Right?

876
00:47:32,955 --> 00:47:37,695
And I think it's a perfect example of don't underestimate

877
00:47:37,935 --> 00:47:42,135
your ability to do something truly breakthrough and,

878
00:47:42,345 --> 00:47:45,465
um, disruptive with something that's unexpected.

879
00:47:45,675 --> 00:47:48,075
And I think that's part of why they're so successful is that

880
00:47:48,405 --> 00:47:51,915
nobody, you can't see Heinz coming and nobody saw Heinz coming.

881
00:47:51,975 --> 00:47:54,465
You can see liquid death coming right.

882
00:47:55,290 --> 00:47:56,850
Um, but you can't see them coming.

883
00:47:57,029 --> 00:47:59,250
So, and I suppose.

884
00:48:00,540 --> 00:48:03,210
I think Nike's starting to get their mojo back.

885
00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:05,250
I think they've done, they had a runner's

886
00:48:05,250 --> 00:48:07,890
campaign that was like, winning isn't comfortable.

887
00:48:08,430 --> 00:48:10,740
Then they had a female sports.

888
00:48:10,740 --> 00:48:11,730
It was, you can't win.

889
00:48:11,730 --> 00:48:14,670
So win, you know, starting to build these like

890
00:48:14,670 --> 00:48:18,300
really cool thought provoking platforms like.

891
00:48:18,740 --> 00:48:22,580
You know, I know that you've probably read enough about how they abandoned brand

892
00:48:22,580 --> 00:48:25,820
for a while, but I do think they're starting to get a little bit of that back.

893
00:48:25,820 --> 00:48:32,210
And for, for a creative, that was always the, like, that was Mountain Olympus.

894
00:48:32,210 --> 00:48:37,580
If you could go work at Widen on Nike, man, you were the, that was it.

895
00:48:37,850 --> 00:48:39,260
Like you might as well retire.

896
00:48:39,260 --> 00:48:40,940
That was the best job you could possibly get.

897
00:48:41,270 --> 00:48:43,310
So to see Nike like trip and fall and

898
00:48:43,310 --> 00:48:46,640
stumble, um, is not something that any of us.

899
00:48:47,325 --> 00:48:51,855
Look at, uh, fondly at like, we really, really want Nike to do well.

900
00:48:51,855 --> 00:48:54,765
They are still and should be our North Star.

901
00:48:54,765 --> 00:48:59,115
And so I'm really excited to see them returning back to form.

902
00:48:59,145 --> 00:49:03,645
So kudos to the team for, um, acknowledging that they've tripped

903
00:49:03,645 --> 00:49:06,105
and stumbled and now putting the throttle back down, which is great.

904
00:49:06,645 --> 00:49:06,885
Yeah.

905
00:49:07,245 --> 00:49:10,005
Yeah, I wondered where they had gone because it, it did seem like

906
00:49:10,005 --> 00:49:15,105
for a while they were just non-existent within like the, even

907
00:49:15,105 --> 00:49:18,255
you'd watch a sporting event and whatever you're watching, it

908
00:49:18,375 --> 00:49:20,865
seems like there's always something Nike on, and at least when

909
00:49:20,865 --> 00:49:23,505
I was growing up and then now it's like, oh yeah, you're right.

910
00:49:23,505 --> 00:49:26,655
They haven't been around that much, but that's making sense.

911
00:49:26,715 --> 00:49:28,455
So that's great to know.

912
00:49:28,515 --> 00:49:29,235
That's great to know.

913
00:49:29,535 --> 00:49:30,630
Um, well, awesome.

914
00:49:31,890 --> 00:49:33,780
James, thank you so much for your time today.

915
00:49:33,780 --> 00:49:34,920
I do appreciate it.

916
00:49:34,950 --> 00:49:36,420
Um, where can people connect with you?

917
00:49:36,420 --> 00:49:38,850
Where can they, um, get to know more about Arnold?

918
00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:44,850
Um, you can go to r.com, uh, for Arnold and you could probably,

919
00:49:44,850 --> 00:49:48,600
if you're really more interested in me or want to talk more or

920
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:52,440
how to break into the industry or how to make good things out

921
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:55,870
of boring stuff, um, you can hit me up on LinkedIn for sure.

922
00:49:56,805 --> 00:49:58,245
Excellent, alrightyy.

923
00:49:58,245 --> 00:49:59,985
Well James, thank you so much for coming on.

924
00:50:00,465 --> 00:50:00,915
Thanks, Chris.

925
00:50:00,915 --> 00:50:02,505
I really appreciate you having me.

926
00:50:02,625 --> 00:50:03,285
It's been a joy.

927
00:50:03,555 --> 00:50:05,085
Yeah, it's been enjoyable for sure.

928
00:50:05,595 --> 00:50:08,085
Thanks for checking out this episode of We Built This Brand.

929
00:50:08,265 --> 00:50:11,055
Don't forget to like and subscribe on your player of choice.

930
00:50:11,115 --> 00:50:14,895
You can also keep up with the podcast on We built this brand.com.

931
00:50:15,220 --> 00:50:19,120
If you like this episode, please give the podcast a five star review and make

932
00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:23,095
sure to tell all your friends about it so we can continue to build this brand.