Boards, Burnout & Building Sustainable Nonprofits with Mary Walker

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The organizations that succeeded during COVID were the ones that went, "Wait a

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minute, this is gonna be longer than two weeks, and I've got to do something to

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serve our clientele and, and our individuals with what's happening right now."

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Welcome to We Built This Brand, where we pull back the

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curtain on the people, the ideas, and the sometimes

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challenging process of building something that matters.

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Today, I'm joined by Mary Walker, the founder of Leafspring.

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Mary trains nonprofit leaders and has served in a variety of nonprofit

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staff and board roles, including the director of development.

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Over the past several years, she has helped hundreds of organizations

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build strong, efficient programs through strategic planning,

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financial planning, business systems, and revenue development.

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Mary's clients have gone on to raise hundreds of millions

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of dollars to support social services, animal welfare,

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environmental, educational, and many other causes.

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Today, she's here to share the system she developed to help

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you raise more money with less chaos and more confidence.

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So without further ado, here's my conversation with Mary Walker of Leafspring.

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All righty.

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Well, M- Mary, welcome to We Built This Brand.

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Thank you very much.

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It's an honor to be here.

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Absolutely.

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I am so glad to have you here today after a few failed attempts- … to

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get together, and some illness and some whatever else we had going on.

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Life.

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Life.

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Life.

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It was just-

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Yes

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…
very eventful the last few weeks.

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Well, thank you for having me.

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Yeah.

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Like I said, I'm honored to be here, and a, a lot of great people have

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come before you, so I'm happy to be here between, between the palms-

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Absolutely

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…
as, as they say.

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Absolutely.

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And we're happy to, happy to have you and happy to be talking to you

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today about everything, and would just like to kinda dive in, talk

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to you about your background and what led you to start Leafspring.

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Yeah.

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It's been a long road, and I think, well, partially because I'm, I'm not 23.

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Mm. But i- I think a lot of times when you get to

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where you're getting, it's not a straight path.

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Mm-hmm.

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And I went to school to be a doctor, because, oh, I'm going to be a doctor,

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and I got into my biology degree and realized I don't like sick people or

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body fluids, and I said, "Okay, I should probably look for something else."

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Finished the degree, and then got my MBA.

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Business had kind of been the discussion at home.

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My family had a family business.

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We were in the automotive world.

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And, and I really was drawn to it.

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And so I got the MBA.

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I took the corporate job.

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I worked for Holiday Inns, helped them decide where to put new hotels.

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Oh, nice.

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A lot of numbers.

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It was- Yeah … considered a marketing job, but it was very

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research-based- Mm … very numbers-based, financial based.

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And then I took a job with, uh, Kraft Food Ingredients in

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Memphis, and we actually supplied in… It was B2B sales.

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I was in charge of caramel, and caramel is messy and- Oh

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sticky.

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Mm-hmm.

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And people don't like to deal with it, so they would buy caramel

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from Kraft- And we, our, our customers were Hershey and Keebler

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and people like this, and they would put it into their things.

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So I did that for a, a good bit.

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Moved back to Knoxville, uh, with my husband in, I think '93, and joined

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the family business, which, so it was automotive, and just loved it.

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It's, you know, a lot of people, uh, the car business,

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"Oh, that's a horrible business to be in," whatever.

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It's a really, really tight margin business, and a lot of volume,

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but very tight margins, and things can go askew really quickly.

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And so just learning to manage that and having systems in place to

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make sure it was balanced all the time, and I, I really enjoyed it.

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We sold those businesses in, like, 2004, and at that time I had kids that

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were primary and middle school, and I'm like, "I need to, I need to make sure

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I'm here." So I started working for a nonprofit because of the flexibility.

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The salary's not so great necessarily, but the flexibility was amazing.

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I could be home with them when I needed to.

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It, it was great.

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And going into the nonprofits, I started realizing a lot of this business

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for-profit experience that I had transfers so well into the nonprofit world.

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And I would walk into… I was on a couple of boards, and we'd be talking

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finances, and I'd go, "Oh, I think you need to do this, this, this."

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They're like, "How do you know that?" I said, "I, I don't know.

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It just, it's what you would do." And I'm like, wow, I've got things

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that I can bring to this. So I, so I worked for a couple of different

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nonprofits. I did fundraising for the Knoxville Museum of Art and, and

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then I finally said, "You know, I'm just gonna hang out my own shingle.

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This is gonna be my retirement job, and I'll work when I want

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to and not when I don't want to." And so I started the company,

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and it's become much bigger than I thought it was going to.

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It takes up a lot more of my time than I

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anticipated, but I love every minute of it.

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And what I've discovered is that So many nonprofit leaders are so passionate

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about what they do, and they're really good at delivering their mission.

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They can feed the hungry people, they can vaccinate the

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animals, they can put the art on the wall, but they may not

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have had a lot of experience with running an organization.

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So I stay away from telling people how to do their mission.

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They know how to do that.

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But I help with things like strategic planning

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and financial planning and fundraising.

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I don't do fundraising, but I teach it.

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And as I've mentioned to you before, boards behaving badly, but

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governance and board issues and, and bylaws and things like that.

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And I have just enjoyed it.

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I just thought it would just be a side gig, and

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now it has turned into a much bigger thing for me.

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That is a neat journey.

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And, you know, I have my MBA as well.

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So, like, I've, I've been down that road of trying to, you know,

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figure out a career path, and very, very early on I knew I wanted

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to get my MBA, but I realized I needed it, I guess I should say.

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Mm. After I had actually done a startup and a small business,

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I was like, "I could still use some business sense."

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Right.

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"Let's, you know, let's go back to school and see what, see what's

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there to learn." And, and, you know, going, getting in the non- into the

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nonprofit space is just such a, a neat, um… It's just a neat field.

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I mean, I've done a lot of work with, um, the American

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Marketing Association- Yes … which is a nonprofit.

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Mm-hmm.

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And I have a lot of experience, like being on the board, being in

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leadership there, and, and doing all that, so I know the challenges

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that come with- Mm … engaging and building a community and, and trying

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to raise funds for your organization and, and for causes and things.

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So now that you have Leafspring, what would

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you say, like, is your core focus with it?

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What are you, what are you doing right now?

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And kinda like where do you see the business being focused?

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Well, initially, and up 'til now, it has been very, uh,

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singularly focused on helping one nonprofit at a time.

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My, my husband says, "Saving the world one

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nonprofit at a time," and we, we joke about that.

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And, and honestly, I, I had a website, and

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I don't get much business off my website.

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I get business from pe- from referrals.

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Mm. And all… I, I, I don't advertise, um, because it's just coming

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organically as much as I can handle, which is such a great problem to have.

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Uh, but like this morning, I got a text from somebody that said, "Hey, you

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did a strategic plan for an organization I was part of t- three years ago.

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I'm on the board of a new organization.

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Would you be willing to look at a strategic plan

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for us?" And I'm like, wow, that's really cool.

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It's so affirming.

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Like, okay, I think I'm making a difference,

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and, and that's ultimately what this is about.

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So that one-on-one customizing what I do for the organization.

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And then what we do is we break down… I feel like for anything you

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do, you have to know where you are- You have to know where you're

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going, and then you have to figure out how you're gonna get there.

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So you have to understand what your current place is.

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This is all strategic planning.

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But in development, where's your money coming from now?

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How much of it are you earning?

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How much of it is, is donated?

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If it's donated, h- what categories is it being donated in?

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Are you getting grants?

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Are you getting major donors?

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Are you getting, uh, are you do- running fundraising events?

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And then I have this little section called collective

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donors, which are the donors that are smaller than major

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donors, but a lot of times you think of them collectively.

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Like you, you run an, um, annual campaign, or you

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send out a Christmas letter or something like that.

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So you think about those in that way.

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So we divide up all of your current income into those

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so we understand organically what we have already.

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Mm-hmm.

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'Cause if you are kicking butt and taking names on

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fundraising events, then we're gonna lean into that.

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If you've never done a fundraising event, then maybe

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n- do you have the DNA in your organization to do that?

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Maybe you do, maybe you don't.

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So we figure out where we are.

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Then we go and say, "Well, what do we, what do we want to have? How much

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do we need? If we want to fulfill our mission, what do we have to do that?"

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And I find a lot of times people go, "Oh, we're

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just gonna increase it by 4% a year." Mm-hmm.

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And I call this the 4% a year fallacy.

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The reason being is that if you just say, think

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about, "I'm gonna raise 4 more percent." Mm-hmm.

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Well, what's it gonna take to do that?

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It's gonna take 4% more effort.

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It's gonna take 4% more calls to donors.

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It's gonna find 4% more donor, all the things.

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And at the end of the year you go, "Wow, you did a great job.

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You raised 4% more money.

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Do it again." And you go, "Wow, okay.

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Phew." And you go out and you raise everything you've raised

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before, plus 4% more, and you do it again. And then at the

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end of the year, we come and we go, "That was so great.

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Here's a pizza party for everything you did.

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Do it again." And it's not sustainable.

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You can't work at, at that level long-term.

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Mm-hmm.

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So instead, I'm like, "What does your mission need to get there?" Mm-hmm.

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So if you're serving 500 children in your county, I say,

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"How many children in your county need your services?"

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And they go, "Okay, 1,500." I'm like,

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"Okay, so you're at 500, the need is 1,500.

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There's two ways to look at this, or maybe two ways and then an in-between way.

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If you are helping 500 children that otherwise

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wouldn't be helped, then good for you.

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That's fantastic.

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You stay right there.

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You are doing a great job."

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And comma, what if you wanted to do all 1,500?

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And if you wanted to do all 1,500, what

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would that make your organization look like?

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You would have to raise perhaps three times as much money.

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You would have to have three times as much staff, things like that.

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You can't 4% your way from 500 kids to 1,500 kids.

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Growth doesn't happen evenly.

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You might have a, a point where you have to put in a whole nother person.

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You may have to add staff in chunks, or you may have to move to another

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building or add a site or something, and those happen in chunks.

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So when you're looking at something strategically, I wanna

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say, "Okay, where are you now and where do you wanna be?"

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Then you build your budget and your development plan and your

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fundraising plan to get there, and that's when you pack the car.

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I said so many times we're like, "Oh, we're going to California. Okay,

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I'm gonna pack a bathing suit and my skis." Well, I don't know if,

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if we're gonna swim or sit on the beach or if we're gonna snow ski.

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Mm. So you've gotta make a plan to get there, otherwise you're packing all

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this stuff before you've even, before you even know where you're going.

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So I'm flipping around on different analogies.

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But- Yeah … I, I love the concept of having this,

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understanding where you are now, understanding where it

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is you wanna be, and then making a plan to get there.

236
00:11:40,533 --> 00:11:45,804
So in the… What I'm designing right now is a development planning tool where

237
00:11:45,873 --> 00:11:48,334
you go in and you say, "Okay, this is where I wanna… This is where we are.

238
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This is where we wanna be.

239
00:11:50,734 --> 00:11:54,074
And so now we're gonna map out we're, how we're gonna get there.

240
00:11:54,513 --> 00:11:56,634
And are we gonna lean into events?

241
00:11:56,634 --> 00:11:58,414
Are we gonna lean into major donors?"

242
00:11:58,623 --> 00:12:00,743
Major donors is a lot of time the answer.

243
00:12:00,963 --> 00:12:00,993
Mm-hmm.

244
00:12:01,353 --> 00:12:04,044
Um, are we gonna meet in, lean into collective donors?

245
00:12:04,094 --> 00:12:07,844
Are we gonna le- lead into earned income, or are we gonna lead into grants?

246
00:12:08,274 --> 00:12:09,403
Mm. What is gonna be the way?

247
00:12:09,434 --> 00:12:11,173
And then divide and conquer.

248
00:12:11,533 --> 00:12:14,574
We set a goal for each of those, and then we try to achieve that goal.

249
00:12:15,173 --> 00:12:17,634
Instead of, "Oh, let's just go out and ask people for money." Mm.

250
00:12:17,634 --> 00:12:21,054
And, and so that's the approach that I think we miss sometimes.

251
00:12:21,054 --> 00:12:25,363
We tend to promote people into the development role in

252
00:12:25,363 --> 00:12:28,774
nonprofits, especially the smaller nonprofits, that love

253
00:12:28,774 --> 00:12:31,734
the organization and have no development experience.

254
00:12:31,734 --> 00:12:34,653
Mm. So they don't know how to even design this plan.

255
00:12:34,964 --> 00:12:36,293
They don't know how to make an ask.

256
00:12:36,723 --> 00:12:37,704
Mm. We go through that.

257
00:12:37,704 --> 00:12:39,024
We teach that process.

258
00:12:39,433 --> 00:12:43,083
They don't know… They've n- they may or may not have done it a lot of times.

259
00:12:43,403 --> 00:12:45,274
They don't know what to do if they get a no.

260
00:12:45,914 --> 00:12:46,744
Mm. Nos are okay.

261
00:12:47,193 --> 00:12:47,664
It's okay.

262
00:12:47,693 --> 00:12:47,753
Yeah.

263
00:12:48,314 --> 00:12:49,534
You just maintain the relationship.

264
00:12:49,583 --> 00:12:54,393
They don't know how to manage a relationship so that

265
00:12:54,804 --> 00:12:58,054
the donor feels engaged when they're not giving.

266
00:12:58,583 --> 00:13:01,954
There's nothing worse than realizing you haven't talked to a donor

267
00:13:02,263 --> 00:13:05,424
in 11 months, and it's time to ask them for your, their annual gift.

268
00:13:05,693 --> 00:13:08,253
And if I were that donor, I'd be like, "Well, you only come to me

269
00:13:08,253 --> 00:13:11,674
when you want something." So how do we engage that donor throughout

270
00:13:11,674 --> 00:13:15,683
the year so that we don't wind up in December, or whenever that

271
00:13:15,734 --> 00:13:18,763
is, and ask and, and like, "Oh, I'm here with my hand out again."

272
00:13:19,064 --> 00:13:19,123
Right.

273
00:13:19,443 --> 00:13:22,513
So building that system and putting that system in place,

274
00:13:22,884 --> 00:13:24,893
you don't have the bandwidth to think about it every day.

275
00:13:24,933 --> 00:13:27,914
So you put the system in place, and that's what I'm hoping that

276
00:13:27,914 --> 00:13:30,723
this will do for people, is give them a way to make a system

277
00:13:31,044 --> 00:13:34,384
that, that they can use to follow this through every year.

278
00:13:34,734 --> 00:13:40,583
Having been in an organization that has challenges with fundraising, having

279
00:13:41,054 --> 00:13:45,494
seen that up close, I know exactly the challenge that you're talking about.

280
00:13:45,523 --> 00:13:50,103
And it can be hard when you're fundraising to really

281
00:13:50,103 --> 00:13:52,943
find the right audience, the right people to talk to.

282
00:13:53,174 --> 00:13:55,764
So yeah, I think I love that idea of, like, the way you're

283
00:13:55,764 --> 00:14:00,414
talking about making it about really a, a strategy, and

284
00:14:00,414 --> 00:14:02,803
really thinking about the people you're trying to reach too.

285
00:14:02,803 --> 00:14:04,443
That's, I don't know if that was intentional in

286
00:14:04,443 --> 00:14:06,324
what you were saying or not, I'm assuming it was.

287
00:14:06,853 --> 00:14:09,243
But where, where you said, you know, thinking about the people you wanna

288
00:14:09,243 --> 00:14:13,283
reach first helps as well, 'cause just saying, "Oh, we put a new number

289
00:14:13,283 --> 00:14:17,614
out there to go after," I mean, how do you communicate that to a staff?

290
00:14:17,643 --> 00:14:20,574
How do you communicate that to an organization?

291
00:14:20,574 --> 00:14:22,763
I mean, that's, that's eventually just gonna become

292
00:14:22,763 --> 00:14:25,004
an arbitrary thing that you've gotta do every year.

293
00:14:25,243 --> 00:14:29,414
That becomes a perpetual… If you can't make it move, you're gonna fail.

294
00:14:29,484 --> 00:14:29,544
Right.

295
00:14:29,574 --> 00:14:32,103
And you're just setting yourself up for that future failure.

296
00:14:32,234 --> 00:14:34,303
'Cause 4% now is 8%.

297
00:14:34,463 --> 00:14:35,783
You know, if you do that every year- Right … that's

298
00:14:35,783 --> 00:14:37,833
8%, 12%- Right … 16, and- Right, and it's

299
00:14:37,833 --> 00:14:38,614
compounding- Yes … so

300
00:14:38,614 --> 00:14:38,914
it

301
00:14:38,914 --> 00:14:40,083
just gets bigger and bigger.

302
00:14:40,083 --> 00:14:40,604
Yes.

303
00:14:40,924 --> 00:14:44,744
I, I think a lot of times nonprofits are so mission-focused-

304
00:14:44,744 --> 00:14:46,604
Mm-hmm … which is what they're supposed to be.

305
00:14:46,604 --> 00:14:46,693
Right.

306
00:14:46,844 --> 00:14:49,083
So go, go nonprofits.

307
00:14:49,553 --> 00:14:54,183
Very, very mission-focused, that they tend to forget

308
00:14:54,183 --> 00:14:56,424
that they've got to have the resources in place to do it.

309
00:14:56,854 --> 00:14:58,573
And so they're always working hand-to-mouth.

310
00:14:58,784 --> 00:15:00,734
They're always worried about where the next dollar's

311
00:15:00,734 --> 00:15:02,744
coming from so that they can serve the next person.

312
00:15:02,744 --> 00:15:02,774
Mm-hmm.

313
00:15:03,333 --> 00:15:06,894
And by going back and looking at this from a 30,000-foot view

314
00:15:06,894 --> 00:15:09,863
and say, you're going, look, you have got to, you may have

315
00:15:09,863 --> 00:15:13,924
to spend time, effort, and resources on building resources.

316
00:15:13,954 --> 00:15:13,984
Mm-hmm.

317
00:15:14,253 --> 00:15:16,984
And, and that's hard to do, because then it's like, I wanna

318
00:15:16,984 --> 00:15:19,634
take everything we make and I wanna help the, the people.

319
00:15:19,844 --> 00:15:19,933
Right.

320
00:15:20,083 --> 00:15:22,073
Or, or the animals, or the whatever you're doing.

321
00:15:22,394 --> 00:15:23,314
And, and you wanna do that.

322
00:15:23,354 --> 00:15:26,104
Well, and that's so admirable and so amazing.

323
00:15:26,914 --> 00:15:31,094
And that's not necessarily the best way to run an organization.

324
00:15:31,244 --> 00:15:31,274
Mm-hmm.

325
00:15:31,513 --> 00:15:33,973
So a lot of times I'll come in and I'll find an organization where

326
00:15:33,973 --> 00:15:37,854
the ED, the executive director, the ED, is primarily mission-focused.

327
00:15:37,854 --> 00:15:38,303
Mm-hmm.

328
00:15:38,723 --> 00:15:40,674
And they're out raising money, perhaps some.

329
00:15:41,123 --> 00:15:42,883
You've got a program manager, you've got an office

330
00:15:42,883 --> 00:15:45,114
manager, you've got other people that do things.

331
00:15:45,463 --> 00:15:48,114
I'm like, who's raise, who is in charge of raising the money?

332
00:15:48,114 --> 00:15:48,853
Well, the ED is.

333
00:15:48,853 --> 00:15:55,323
It's really hard for an ED to split their world-

334
00:15:56,149 --> 00:15:58,540
into raising money and delivering mission.

335
00:15:58,699 --> 00:16:00,419
It's just a really hard thing to do.

336
00:16:00,979 --> 00:16:05,149
And a lot of times I will argue for hire somebody for development.

337
00:16:05,330 --> 00:16:05,360
Mm-hmm.

338
00:16:05,670 --> 00:16:08,920
"Well, we can't afford to." I'm like, "Okay, I'm just gonna tell

339
00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:11,599
you right now, if a good development director can't raise their

340
00:16:11,599 --> 00:16:14,220
own salary in three months, you need to kick them to the curb."

341
00:16:14,650 --> 00:16:14,710
Yeah.

342
00:16:14,970 --> 00:16:16,900
And I'm probably harsh that way, but, like,

343
00:16:16,939 --> 00:16:19,370
it's, it's a budget friendly position.

344
00:16:19,700 --> 00:16:19,880
Mm-hmm.

345
00:16:19,919 --> 00:16:21,329
It's a sales position.

346
00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:25,249
They should be bringing in plenty of revenue- Mm … to offset

347
00:16:25,249 --> 00:16:29,790
not only their own salary, but to support the organization.

348
00:16:29,819 --> 00:16:34,279
And, and if you have them 100% focused on raising

349
00:16:34,279 --> 00:16:38,001
money And they don't get pulled off into, "Oh, well,

350
00:16:38,001 --> 00:16:39,792
they're gonna go help do this, and they're gonna go…"

351
00:16:40,022 --> 00:16:42,701
No, you keep them 100% focused in raising money.

352
00:16:43,131 --> 00:16:45,491
Then now you've got that revenue coming in.

353
00:16:45,832 --> 00:16:49,241
The resources an organization needs are basically money,

354
00:16:49,271 --> 00:16:53,721
time, and people, and money arguably purchases the other two.

355
00:16:54,412 --> 00:16:58,092
So you, you've got to have that fundraising coming in to support the mission.

356
00:16:58,592 --> 00:17:02,512
And once I can kind of get a board or an ED to think about

357
00:17:02,512 --> 00:17:05,842
it that way, it's like m- raising money is not a bad thing.

358
00:17:05,842 --> 00:17:07,032
It's not an evil thing.

359
00:17:07,481 --> 00:17:11,391
It is a, a good, positive thing, and it's gonna support your organization.

360
00:17:11,391 --> 00:17:12,601
You have to pay attention to it.

361
00:17:12,851 --> 00:17:16,421
And that sort of, uh, and that aha moment is, I love it.

362
00:17:16,581 --> 00:17:17,571
I just, I'm like, yes.

363
00:17:17,571 --> 00:17:20,312
And the, "Oh, we need a hard development director." And I'm like, "Yes, you do.

364
00:17:20,492 --> 00:17:22,941
Yes, you do." It's hard to do, and you're gonna have

365
00:17:22,941 --> 00:17:24,772
to put a little money up front to get them started,

366
00:17:24,772 --> 00:17:27,402
'cause they're not gonna bring in $30,000 the first day.

367
00:17:27,592 --> 00:17:28,941
But let's talk about it.

368
00:17:28,941 --> 00:17:30,342
Let's set up what their goals should be.

369
00:17:30,342 --> 00:17:32,252
Let's set up, uh, how they're gonna go about it,

370
00:17:32,252 --> 00:17:34,412
and let's make sure they have the support in place.

371
00:17:34,682 --> 00:17:36,912
There might be some internal systems they need to have in

372
00:17:36,912 --> 00:17:40,242
place to do their job, but it should be budget friendly.

373
00:17:40,742 --> 00:17:44,181
I think that fundraising is often overlooked or too…

374
00:17:44,272 --> 00:17:46,231
It, it's, it feels like it's either one or the other.

375
00:17:46,231 --> 00:17:51,051
It's either completely overlooked in an organization, or it's so heavily

376
00:17:51,051 --> 00:17:54,592
focused on that it becomes all the organization ends up being about.

377
00:17:54,962 --> 00:17:56,852
And at least it's my experience.

378
00:17:57,102 --> 00:18:00,551
I remember, I, early on, actually that first startup I was a part

379
00:18:00,551 --> 00:18:03,901
of, we did work for a, and I'm not gonna name names here, but

380
00:18:03,901 --> 00:18:07,422
there was a nonprofit in town that I actually got on the board of.

381
00:18:07,422 --> 00:18:09,191
Like, we had done work with them.

382
00:18:09,191 --> 00:18:10,782
They were a client, and they were like, "Can you be on

383
00:18:10,782 --> 00:18:13,102
our board, too?" I was like, "Yeah, sure, I'll be on the

384
00:18:13,102 --> 00:18:16,371
board." But I was on the board with, like, 30 other people.

385
00:18:16,511 --> 00:18:18,462
Or at least maybe 60.

386
00:18:18,772 --> 00:18:22,441
And I'll never forget, like, they had a leadership change.

387
00:18:22,941 --> 00:18:27,471
A new staff guy came in, or a new, new ED came in, and

388
00:18:27,592 --> 00:18:30,172
all of a sudden he was doing the fundraising, and he was

389
00:18:30,172 --> 00:18:33,172
pushing everybody on the board off, and he was like…

390
00:18:33,452 --> 00:18:35,712
And at the time, like, the company I was a part of, the

391
00:18:35,712 --> 00:18:38,331
startup that I had started, like, just didn't work out.

392
00:18:38,611 --> 00:18:41,342
We, we were winding down, so I was like, "I quit." Like, "I

393
00:18:41,342 --> 00:18:43,431
can't be a part of this board with what you're expecting.

394
00:18:44,031 --> 00:18:47,652
I'm sorry." But I just remember that whole crazy situation,

395
00:18:47,772 --> 00:18:49,811
and the weirdest thing was just showing up and realizing, like,

396
00:18:49,811 --> 00:18:52,022
there was a board, and then there was a board within a board.

397
00:18:52,451 --> 00:18:55,191
And it was like, how does this really even

398
00:18:55,191 --> 00:18:57,201
work if there's so many people on the board?

399
00:18:57,201 --> 00:18:59,662
So that just kind of leads into, like, I, I think what

400
00:18:59,742 --> 00:19:02,132
you, uh, mentioned earlier, boards behaving badly.

401
00:19:02,482 --> 00:19:02,591
Yes.

402
00:19:02,811 --> 00:19:05,792
Um, so tell me- Yes … more about that and, and those, those

403
00:19:05,792 --> 00:19:06,451
challenges.

404
00:19:06,451 --> 00:19:08,482
And, uh, and, and I, I jokingly talk about that

405
00:19:08,482 --> 00:19:10,962
because it, it alliterates, and it's, it's fun to say.

406
00:19:11,111 --> 00:19:15,092
But a lot of people that join, join Governing boards Mm-hmm … not

407
00:19:15,092 --> 00:19:20,071
advisory boards, but governing boards, don't fully understand their purpose

408
00:19:20,122 --> 00:19:23,922
and, and their responsibility, and they don't necessarily understand the

409
00:19:23,922 --> 00:19:27,622
balance- Mm … that has to happen- Mm … um, between the board and the ED.

410
00:19:28,111 --> 00:19:31,881
The governing board is fiscally responsible for the organization.

411
00:19:32,172 --> 00:19:32,201
Mm-hmm.

412
00:19:32,662 --> 00:19:34,971
They are responsible for the money.

413
00:19:35,082 --> 00:19:36,821
They're responsible for how it's used.

414
00:19:36,821 --> 00:19:38,832
They're responsible for if it's used legally.

415
00:19:38,832 --> 00:19:40,371
They're responsible for all of these things.

416
00:19:40,811 --> 00:19:43,561
They're responsible for setting a strategic plan for the organization.

417
00:19:43,561 --> 00:19:49,692
Mm. The ED is responsible for the dai- daily operations of the nonprofit.

418
00:19:50,282 --> 00:19:54,181
So you've got the micromanaging board, which tries to get in the

419
00:19:54,181 --> 00:19:56,782
ED's business and tell them what to do all the time, which is not

420
00:19:56,782 --> 00:20:00,572
appropriate, but then sometimes you have the rubber stamp board, that's

421
00:20:00,572 --> 00:20:03,771
just like the ED comes in and goes, "Okay, we're going to, uh, we're-

422
00:20:03,841 --> 00:20:06,822
we're painting the building pink," and they go, "Okay, sounds good."

423
00:20:07,242 --> 00:20:10,262
Um, "Okay, we're spending, uh, $20,000 on this," and they go,

424
00:20:10,262 --> 00:20:12,721
"Okay, sounds good." And they're not doing their job either.

425
00:20:12,962 --> 00:20:13,282
Yeah.

426
00:20:13,471 --> 00:20:17,501
And it's a weird situation because the ED reports to the board

427
00:20:17,501 --> 00:20:20,782
collectively- Mm … not to any one board member, but to the whole board.

428
00:20:21,212 --> 00:20:26,142
And so the board may only meet, let's say they meet once a month for an hour.

429
00:20:26,392 --> 00:20:28,771
So and let's say the ED works 40 hours a week.

430
00:20:28,771 --> 00:20:30,992
Most of them work more than that, but let's say they work 40 hours a week.

431
00:20:31,311 --> 00:20:34,011
They've worked 160 hours between board meetings,

432
00:20:34,591 --> 00:20:36,242
and then the board comes in and spends an hour.

433
00:20:36,672 --> 00:20:40,441
Mm. And then he works 100 o- 160 hours again, and then the board

434
00:20:40,441 --> 00:20:46,081
m- So the ED is much more knowledge about the daily operations

435
00:20:46,081 --> 00:20:49,572
and what's going on in the climate or surrounding the nonprofit,

436
00:20:49,862 --> 00:20:53,352
but yet reports to the board that doesn't have that knowledge.

437
00:20:53,682 --> 00:20:56,941
The board's usually, uh, almost always volunteers, and then if they

438
00:20:56,941 --> 00:21:00,682
come and help at something, say they come and help at a fundraiser

439
00:21:00,682 --> 00:21:02,862
or something like that, now they're serving in a different role.

440
00:21:02,862 --> 00:21:07,091
They're serving in a volunteer role for the e- event.

441
00:21:07,481 --> 00:21:08,432
They're not in charge then.

442
00:21:09,248 --> 00:21:12,598
And it's really hard sometimes to get that dynamic correct.

443
00:21:12,967 --> 00:21:14,797
It's not very efficient dynamic.

444
00:21:15,478 --> 00:21:20,338
In for-profits, you typically have the head person and then the people under it.

445
00:21:20,368 --> 00:21:22,137
It kind of stretches out like a pyramid.

446
00:21:22,567 --> 00:21:26,628
In a nonprofit, you have the ED kind of in the middle between the

447
00:21:26,628 --> 00:21:30,357
board and the staff, and it's not, it's not terribly efficient.

448
00:21:30,357 --> 00:21:32,148
Decision-making takes a long time.

449
00:21:32,148 --> 00:21:35,427
If the ED wants to do something major, he's got to, he

450
00:21:35,427 --> 00:21:38,267
or she has to sell that to the board, i- if you will.

451
00:21:38,267 --> 00:21:40,288
They have to, uh, get consensus on it.

452
00:21:40,288 --> 00:21:41,097
It takes time.

453
00:21:41,097 --> 00:21:43,258
They don't meet every, but so every so often,

454
00:21:43,258 --> 00:21:46,247
so it's a longer process, and, and that's good.

455
00:21:46,528 --> 00:21:48,808
That's why it's set up that way, to make sure that no

456
00:21:48,808 --> 00:21:52,058
one's taking control of this public entity, basically.

457
00:21:52,317 --> 00:21:56,107
But it takes longer, and so managing that dynamic

458
00:21:56,148 --> 00:21:58,968
is where I get into a lot of, a lot of things.

459
00:21:59,418 --> 00:22:03,398
I've unfortunately dealt with a board recently, it's not in East Tennessee,

460
00:22:03,398 --> 00:22:08,177
it's in another area, that there were about three people on the board

461
00:22:08,177 --> 00:22:12,528
that were controlling the communication to the rest of the board,

462
00:22:12,948 --> 00:22:17,227
and one of those people was the treasurer, and she was not interested

463
00:22:17,227 --> 00:22:19,787
in having a finance committee, even though that was in their bylaws.

464
00:22:20,138 --> 00:22:24,257
And the ED kept going to her and saying, "We're gonna run out of

465
00:22:24,257 --> 00:22:27,687
money." The board passed a deficit budget, which meant they were going

466
00:22:27,687 --> 00:22:30,517
to bring… They were expecting to spend more than they brought in.

467
00:22:31,765 --> 00:22:36,256
And they were gonna hit that deficit in about February

468
00:22:36,256 --> 00:22:38,595
of the, of the year, and this was probably July.

469
00:22:39,155 --> 00:22:42,885
And they had no reserve, so they would be in deficit situation.

470
00:22:42,965 --> 00:22:49,736
And the, um, treasurer refused to let that information go through to the board.

471
00:22:50,326 --> 00:22:54,935
And I got called in, and we tried bringing in an attorney.

472
00:22:54,986 --> 00:22:58,746
We tried bringing in someone from the national organization,

473
00:22:58,746 --> 00:23:02,076
the oversight org- we, we tried these different things and, and

474
00:23:02,076 --> 00:23:04,976
were kinda pooh-pooh'd and, and no, no, what, uh, what happened.

475
00:23:04,976 --> 00:23:09,685
And so sure enough, in February of… It's been a few years now.

476
00:23:10,156 --> 00:23:11,036
Um, they ran out of money.

477
00:23:11,286 --> 00:23:14,376
Mm. And, and when I had gone in, I said, "You have to understand

478
00:23:14,935 --> 00:23:17,606
that you as the board are fiscally responsible for this organization.

479
00:23:18,075 --> 00:23:23,885
So if it goes under, if- if you can't make payroll, your ED goes away, your

480
00:23:23,885 --> 00:23:29,185
staff goes away, and you as a board are gonna be responsible for paying

481
00:23:29,185 --> 00:23:32,726
your creditors, for, for selling the building and put- giving the assets

482
00:23:32,726 --> 00:23:36,535
to another nonprofit, for government contracts that you have in place."

483
00:23:36,876 --> 00:23:36,935
Yeah.

484
00:23:37,005 --> 00:23:39,855
Um, you're responsible for that, and grantors and all this.

485
00:23:40,196 --> 00:23:41,346
Um, and they're, "No, we're not.

486
00:23:41,346 --> 00:23:43,586
No, we're not." Mm. You know, "It's the ED's problem."

487
00:23:43,586 --> 00:23:45,596
I'm like, "No, it's not, 'cause she'll be gone," you know?

488
00:23:45,645 --> 00:23:47,675
And, and we went through all that process, and sure

489
00:23:47,675 --> 00:23:50,236
enough, in February, they got to the point where they

490
00:23:50,285 --> 00:23:54,226
couldn't make payroll, and we had to finally just, uh…

491
00:23:54,715 --> 00:23:55,995
The board ended up resigning.

492
00:23:56,206 --> 00:23:58,575
Those three people ended up resigning, and they

493
00:23:58,575 --> 00:24:00,245
kind of took the rest of the board with them.

494
00:24:00,276 --> 00:24:03,196
And, um, it was unfortunate, but we got a new board installed,

495
00:24:03,346 --> 00:24:07,306
and we had a benefactor that was willing to come forth and support

496
00:24:07,306 --> 00:24:10,406
the organization, and it's back on its feet and doing well.

497
00:24:10,846 --> 00:24:12,666
Uh, but those are, those are the hard ones.

498
00:24:12,666 --> 00:24:16,075
And, and it was ugly, and it was, and it was unfortunate for

499
00:24:16,075 --> 00:24:18,005
some of the board members that had no idea what was going on.

500
00:24:18,005 --> 00:24:18,065
Mm-hmm.

501
00:24:18,196 --> 00:24:19,736
They, they just weren't aware.

502
00:24:19,965 --> 00:24:20,785
But it was good.

503
00:24:20,815 --> 00:24:23,946
And, and ultimately, the individuals that

504
00:24:23,946 --> 00:24:26,605
that nonprofit served had no break in service.

505
00:24:27,026 --> 00:24:27,255
That's good.

506
00:24:27,456 --> 00:24:30,486
And that was probably my biggest happy,

507
00:24:30,745 --> 00:24:33,096
happy moment is we had no break in service.

508
00:24:33,295 --> 00:24:33,355
Yeah.

509
00:24:33,355 --> 00:24:34,115
That was amazing.

510
00:24:34,755 --> 00:24:38,156
It's always hard when you can't make payroll or handle things like that,

511
00:24:38,156 --> 00:24:40,886
and it's always embarrassing as a board when you have that failure.

512
00:24:41,015 --> 00:24:43,265
So I, I totally understand the need to, you

513
00:24:43,265 --> 00:24:45,375
know, change over the board and make- Mm

514
00:24:45,436 --> 00:24:46,556
make changes like that.

515
00:24:46,556 --> 00:24:49,576
What do you, what do you see as, like, some of the other challenges

516
00:24:49,576 --> 00:24:53,976
the boards face outside of, like, maybe financial mismanagement?

517
00:24:53,976 --> 00:24:55,996
Like, what are some common mistakes that they make?

518
00:24:56,395 --> 00:24:59,296
A lot of it is that there is change.

519
00:24:59,496 --> 00:25:01,615
I don't think it's necessarily even… There's

520
00:25:01,615 --> 00:25:03,336
change in how nonprofits are perceived.

521
00:25:03,615 --> 00:25:05,905
There's change in how nonprofits are being

522
00:25:05,905 --> 00:25:08,265
dealt with from, from a government level.

523
00:25:08,466 --> 00:25:11,315
And, and there's changes in how donors feel about nonprofits,

524
00:25:11,315 --> 00:25:14,595
and I don't think that's anything new or particular to,

525
00:25:14,966 --> 00:25:18,375
to this year or this administration or anything like that.

526
00:25:18,375 --> 00:25:20,106
I think it kinda waxes and wanes.

527
00:25:20,655 --> 00:25:22,145
Uh, uh, I guess I've been around long enough

528
00:25:22,145 --> 00:25:24,005
that I've seen it go in a lot of different ways.

529
00:25:24,155 --> 00:25:26,776
Mm. But sometimes a board starts to think

530
00:25:26,776 --> 00:25:28,636
that it's always gonna be the way it has been.

531
00:25:29,678 --> 00:25:33,388
And we've always done it that way, and I'm very happy with the way it was done.

532
00:25:33,688 --> 00:25:37,408
It's been done for 20 years, and I'm not a person the board member

533
00:25:37,408 --> 00:25:40,098
might think, I'm not an agent of change, so I'm not gonna change it.

534
00:25:40,278 --> 00:25:43,568
It's gonna be too much work, so I'm just gonna let it go on

535
00:25:43,568 --> 00:25:46,438
and then, and it, and they don't make change early enough.

536
00:25:46,798 --> 00:25:47,598
I look at COVID.

537
00:25:48,198 --> 00:25:53,167
The organizations that succeeded during COVID were the ones that went, "Wait a

538
00:25:53,167 --> 00:25:57,538
minute, this is gonna be longer than two weeks, and I've got to do something to

539
00:25:57,538 --> 00:26:02,597
serve our clientele and, and our individuals with what's happening right now."

540
00:26:02,968 --> 00:26:05,567
I worked with a performance organization.

541
00:26:05,567 --> 00:26:08,817
They can't have performances because you can't have, can't be in a theater.

542
00:26:08,817 --> 00:26:10,058
You can't do those things.

543
00:26:10,957 --> 00:26:13,828
They pivoted immediately, and I'm really tired

544
00:26:13,828 --> 00:26:15,198
of the word pivot, but I've just used it.

545
00:26:15,387 --> 00:26:16,168
But they, they did.

546
00:26:16,168 --> 00:26:18,078
They changed immediately, and they said, "Okay, we

547
00:26:18,078 --> 00:26:19,948
can't do this, so we're gonna do it a different way."

548
00:26:20,227 --> 00:26:25,187
And they went to offering outside performances at a very small level.

549
00:26:25,457 --> 00:26:26,227
They were free.

550
00:26:26,518 --> 00:26:28,108
They said, "We're just gonna do it for free. We're not gonna

551
00:26:28,108 --> 00:26:31,047
try to make money doing it, and, uh, but we're just… and we're

552
00:26:31,047 --> 00:26:34,127
gonna c- continue to employ the performers because they need

553
00:26:34,127 --> 00:26:37,108
work." And so it was just a… But they did it immediately.

554
00:26:37,858 --> 00:26:40,517
And then I see other organizations that were just like, "We're gonna wait

555
00:26:40,517 --> 00:26:44,258
it out. We're not gonna go to our donors because we can't ask them for money

556
00:26:44,258 --> 00:26:47,767
if, if we're not doing anything." Well, then their donors have moved on.

557
00:26:48,078 --> 00:26:50,358
They quit offering their services, which means

558
00:26:50,398 --> 00:26:52,898
other organizations have come in and filled the gap.

559
00:26:53,027 --> 00:26:57,797
They didn't emerge from COVID as healthy as they went into it And so I think a

560
00:26:57,797 --> 00:27:02,398
lot of times that is a board issue, where the board is not ready to make that

561
00:27:02,398 --> 00:27:07,727
strategic decision, a hard decision on cutting services or changing services,

562
00:27:07,758 --> 00:27:12,357
or figuring out a new way to do something, or even closing if an organization…

563
00:27:12,388 --> 00:27:14,437
There, sometimes an organization needs to close.

564
00:27:14,798 --> 00:27:17,947
It's not as efficient as other organizations that are doing the same thing.

565
00:27:17,947 --> 00:27:20,638
It's, it doesn't have a lot of, uh, people

566
00:27:20,638 --> 00:27:22,828
within it that are ready to make those changes.

567
00:27:22,888 --> 00:27:23,708
It needs to close.

568
00:27:23,847 --> 00:27:24,347
That's fine.

569
00:27:24,578 --> 00:27:25,328
It's perfectly fine.

570
00:27:25,328 --> 00:27:26,007
It's not a failure.

571
00:27:26,007 --> 00:27:26,898
They've done a great thing.

572
00:27:26,898 --> 00:27:27,837
Their season is over.

573
00:27:28,357 --> 00:27:31,378
Uh, but instead of planning to close, they just keep going

574
00:27:31,378 --> 00:27:34,607
and keep going till, ah, and everybody has their hair on fire.

575
00:27:34,947 --> 00:27:37,497
And you can plan to close, and it's a, it's a lovely thing.

576
00:27:38,168 --> 00:27:42,227
Um, you close, and you have a, a nice dinner, and you congratulate yourself

577
00:27:42,227 --> 00:27:45,517
for all the good you did in the world, and you move on to your next chapter.

578
00:27:45,868 --> 00:27:45,927
Yeah.

579
00:27:45,997 --> 00:27:49,328
And so I've, I'm actually closing, helping an organization close right now,

580
00:27:49,677 --> 00:27:54,718
and their founding director passed away, and they just never picked it back up.

581
00:27:54,848 --> 00:27:57,558
And it's been doing great work, but they're like, "There's somebody else

582
00:27:57,558 --> 00:28:00,648
that can do this better." They've joined up with another organization.

583
00:28:00,648 --> 00:28:03,688
They're gonna pass the torch to them, and it's lovely.

584
00:28:04,067 --> 00:28:04,737
That's wise.

585
00:28:05,387 --> 00:28:09,357
The antithesis of that is just waiting until everything fails, like you said.

586
00:28:09,497 --> 00:28:14,648
And yeah, sometimes nonprofits just need to go a certain

587
00:28:14,648 --> 00:28:17,698
way because a founder moved on or something like that.

588
00:28:17,698 --> 00:28:17,728
Mm-hmm.

589
00:28:17,728 --> 00:28:17,987
They do that.

590
00:28:18,078 --> 00:28:18,317
Or they're

591
00:28:18,317 --> 00:28:18,917
Blockbuster.

592
00:28:19,177 --> 00:28:19,387
Yeah.

593
00:28:19,648 --> 00:28:20,387
And, and- Or they're Blockbuster.

594
00:28:20,387 --> 00:28:20,677
That… Good

595
00:28:20,677 --> 00:28:23,078
point … and, and the way they're delivering the services

596
00:28:23,078 --> 00:28:25,328
and their entire infrastructure is set up to deliver

597
00:28:25,328 --> 00:28:28,377
services in a certain way that's just not realistic anymore.

598
00:28:28,658 --> 00:28:31,427
So are they gonna reinvent, or are they going to,

599
00:28:32,167 --> 00:28:33,938
uh… And sometimes you get ego involved in that.

600
00:28:34,268 --> 00:28:35,398
Nobody wants to be a failure.

601
00:28:35,427 --> 00:28:35,707
Right.

602
00:28:35,707 --> 00:28:37,008
Nobody wants to close down a business.

603
00:28:37,008 --> 00:28:37,357
Right.

604
00:28:37,607 --> 00:28:40,637
Or, and, and they're thinking, "Oh, oh, I don't wanna change.

605
00:28:40,637 --> 00:28:43,277
I don't wanna be, I don't wanna be the person that does this." And so

606
00:28:43,277 --> 00:28:47,347
when the ego's involved, it's, it's harder to, to just say, "It's okay.

607
00:28:47,817 --> 00:28:48,237
It's okay.

608
00:28:48,648 --> 00:28:51,018
And, um, we don't have to be the biggest, the best.

609
00:28:51,018 --> 00:28:53,158
We don't have to exist in two years.

610
00:28:53,607 --> 00:28:54,588
But let's do it smartly.

611
00:28:54,877 --> 00:28:59,377
Let's, let's go out wisely and calmly and without our hair on fire." Yeah.

612
00:28:59,478 --> 00:28:59,877
Absolutely.

613
00:29:00,198 --> 00:29:03,127
As we talk about boards, as we talk about nonprofits and

614
00:29:03,127 --> 00:29:05,978
everything, obviously you're doing this through Leafspring.

615
00:29:06,237 --> 00:29:08,327
Tell me more about the name.

616
00:29:08,327 --> 00:29:09,478
Where did Leafspring-

617
00:29:09,478 --> 00:29:10,528
come from?

618
00:29:10,588 --> 00:29:12,198
What inspired you for that?

619
00:29:12,228 --> 00:29:12,538
Okay.

620
00:29:12,538 --> 00:29:14,618
Well, first I brought my mascot with me.

621
00:29:14,668 --> 00:29:14,838
Oh,

622
00:29:14,838 --> 00:29:15,288
excellent.

623
00:29:15,288 --> 00:29:16,267
Um, this is Larry.

624
00:29:16,327 --> 00:29:19,978
Um- Oh … he is my, is my mascot, so I have to bring him.

625
00:29:20,077 --> 00:29:23,148
That's a, it's a marketing, branding kind of gimmick.

626
00:29:23,457 --> 00:29:23,978
Fantastic.

627
00:29:23,978 --> 00:29:25,517
But, uh, did bring him with me today.

628
00:29:25,808 --> 00:29:26,258
So Leaf- Thank

629
00:29:26,258 --> 00:29:27,168
you for joining us, Larry,

630
00:29:27,198 --> 00:29:27,358
by the way.

631
00:29:27,388 --> 00:29:27,588
Oh, yes.

632
00:29:27,588 --> 00:29:27,748
Yes.

633
00:29:27,978 --> 00:29:28,597
Thank you, Larry.

634
00:29:28,767 --> 00:29:33,338
And Larry will get a special watering tonight too, for his, for his service.

635
00:29:33,448 --> 00:29:33,508
Yeah.

636
00:29:33,728 --> 00:29:39,398
So Leafspring, leaf and spring, new life, growth, things like this.

637
00:29:39,698 --> 00:29:42,788
But I think I mentioned I was in the automotive industry.

638
00:29:43,008 --> 00:29:47,207
A leaf spring is part of the chassis of a vehicle, like a

639
00:29:47,207 --> 00:29:52,198
truck, that helps the rider not feel all the bumps in the road.

640
00:29:53,109 --> 00:29:56,240
It helps support the road to, so the ride is smoother.

641
00:29:56,700 --> 00:29:56,730
Mm-hmm.

642
00:29:56,790 --> 00:29:59,609
And when I kind of fell into that because I was actually doing

643
00:29:59,609 --> 00:30:02,250
the trademark search, like who has… Oh, somebody's got that one.

644
00:30:02,639 --> 00:30:05,649
You know, I'm, I'm going through there and, and it just kind of popped.

645
00:30:05,649 --> 00:30:07,030
It was just one of those moments.

646
00:30:07,429 --> 00:30:09,420
I was like, "Oh my gosh, this, this works."

647
00:30:09,719 --> 00:30:09,750
Mm-hmm.

648
00:30:09,809 --> 00:30:13,520
And so w- uh, a leaf spring physically has nothing to do with

649
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:17,110
my business, but it, it, it kind of works, so I've kept it.

650
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:17,190
I

651
00:30:17,190 --> 00:30:18,320
mean, yeah, physically no.

652
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:18,350
Mm-hmm.

653
00:30:18,350 --> 00:30:20,029
But symbolically, absolutely.

654
00:30:20,209 --> 00:30:23,379
And, and it is a nod to the family business that had been around

655
00:30:23,379 --> 00:30:26,320
for, I think we were the fourth generation in it, and, um- Can

656
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:27,250
I ask what that company was?

657
00:30:27,250 --> 00:30:27,650
Sure, yeah.

658
00:30:27,650 --> 00:30:29,639
We were, we were with Reader Chevrolet.

659
00:30:29,900 --> 00:30:30,650
Oh, okay.

660
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:30,939
Yeah,

661
00:30:30,970 --> 00:30:31,090
yeah.

662
00:30:31,090 --> 00:30:35,989
And, um, and, uh, we sold it in, or sold the primary business in 2004.

663
00:30:36,060 --> 00:30:38,470
But there's a lot of things that go into that.

664
00:30:38,750 --> 00:30:42,229
There's a leasing company and a reinsurance company and a, and a ad

665
00:30:42,229 --> 00:30:45,970
agency and all these things that you have to have to, to do that.

666
00:30:46,060 --> 00:30:49,060
My great-grandfather started it in 1912.

667
00:30:49,509 --> 00:30:51,200
Quite the, uh, quite the journey.

668
00:30:51,430 --> 00:30:52,099
Yes.

669
00:30:52,250 --> 00:30:52,560
Yeah.

670
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:52,959
Yes.

671
00:30:52,959 --> 00:30:56,709
He was on State Street, and he owned a livery stable, which for

672
00:30:56,709 --> 00:30:59,480
those of you that don't know what livery is, it's horse and buggy.

673
00:30:59,980 --> 00:31:00,070
Wow.

674
00:31:00,150 --> 00:31:02,419
And so he was in the transportation business

675
00:31:02,669 --> 00:31:05,529
and started selling Studebakers in 1912, so.

676
00:31:05,860 --> 00:31:06,080
Yeah.

677
00:31:06,279 --> 00:31:08,040
He was one of the early adopters.

678
00:31:08,230 --> 00:31:11,000
Um, I think he, he was just looking for, uh,

679
00:31:11,250 --> 00:31:14,309
what's, what's next or, or what would supplement.

680
00:31:14,849 --> 00:31:20,568
And then I had… He was also a huge promoter And in the

681
00:31:20,568 --> 00:31:24,768
time of when, when promoting something and big and huge and

682
00:31:25,047 --> 00:31:28,047
getting the News Sentinel and the Journal at the time to

683
00:31:28,047 --> 00:31:31,237
come and cover everything, and, and he, he did a lot of that.

684
00:31:31,307 --> 00:31:35,798
So the '20s, I think, were, were a big time for him as well.

685
00:31:35,907 --> 00:31:38,948
There's some great stories from that, but for another day.

686
00:31:39,397 --> 00:31:40,518
That is really cool.

687
00:31:40,518 --> 00:31:43,297
I, I kinda wanna dig into that now- … that you've, you've brought all

688
00:31:43,297 --> 00:31:46,057
that up, 'cause that's a part of Knoxville's history, and- Mm-hmm … you

689
00:31:46,057 --> 00:31:50,168
know, an interesting aspect on it too, because it's car dealerships when

690
00:31:50,688 --> 00:31:53,787
cars were still, you know, being formed and the roads were being built.

691
00:31:53,787 --> 00:31:57,787
I actually did a whole podcast on roads in Tennessee.

692
00:31:57,818 --> 00:31:59,888
So I've, I've been a part of that and talked to people

693
00:31:59,888 --> 00:32:02,267
at the highest levels of road construction here in town,

694
00:32:02,267 --> 00:32:04,807
and… Not here in town, here in, here in the state level.

695
00:32:05,337 --> 00:32:05,368
Mm-hmm.

696
00:32:05,368 --> 00:32:09,348
And it's a fascinating journey that our state went through to go from dirt

697
00:32:09,348 --> 00:32:14,418
roads that got muddy and, and, you know, bogged down to where we're at today.

698
00:32:14,587 --> 00:32:16,918
But yeah, seeing that and then hearing the car side of

699
00:32:16,918 --> 00:32:19,068
it, I'm like, "Ooh, there's a, there's a story there.

700
00:32:19,068 --> 00:32:19,658
There's, there's something really

701
00:32:19,658 --> 00:32:20,517
cool." There's a lot there.

702
00:32:20,548 --> 00:32:22,548
I mean, there's like, during World War II- Mm-hmm … you

703
00:32:22,717 --> 00:32:23,068
know,

704
00:32:23,287 --> 00:32:25,808
wh- when cars were in a little low supply, and then

705
00:32:25,808 --> 00:32:27,897
during the Depression, how did they get through that?

706
00:32:27,927 --> 00:32:29,978
And there are tons of, of old stories.

707
00:32:29,978 --> 00:32:35,478
I wrote a gigantic paper on it at one point in college and had to go back and

708
00:32:35,478 --> 00:32:39,567
interview all the folks that were involved in that, and found the old pictures.

709
00:32:39,567 --> 00:32:43,048
And, and, and it just gave me a huge appreciation for

710
00:32:43,368 --> 00:32:45,847
kind of where I'd come from in that, in that realm.

711
00:32:45,878 --> 00:32:47,798
And so, you know, I tell people, "I was a car dealer."

712
00:32:48,167 --> 00:32:51,298
Mm. You know, you can hate me now, but that's- … that's what I did.

713
00:32:51,298 --> 00:32:54,207
I know it's not most- not the most glamorous or sometimes

714
00:32:54,207 --> 00:32:57,308
well thought of profession, but I learned so much from it.

715
00:32:57,537 --> 00:32:59,817
And honestly, Knoxville's a pretty clean car town.

716
00:33:00,247 --> 00:33:00,328
Yeah.

717
00:33:00,357 --> 00:33:03,347
Um, there's, there's not a lot of, at least when I was

718
00:33:03,347 --> 00:33:05,927
involved, there, it, it, we- wasn't, there wasn't a lot

719
00:33:05,927 --> 00:33:08,618
of bad stuff going on like there are in some markets.

720
00:33:08,618 --> 00:33:12,397
So pretty clean car town, a lot of old families that have been

721
00:33:12,397 --> 00:33:15,258
involved for a long time, and they're, they've got the long-term view.

722
00:33:15,588 --> 00:33:19,167
I've had the good fortune to meet the West family- Mm … and the Harpers and-

723
00:33:19,167 --> 00:33:19,558
Oh,

724
00:33:19,667 --> 00:33:20,808
yeah … some, some of those folks.

725
00:33:20,808 --> 00:33:23,647
And I will, I will say, I've never had a bad

726
00:33:23,647 --> 00:33:26,817
experience with the major dealerships in town.

727
00:33:26,938 --> 00:33:30,807
Harper specifically, I'm a, I'm an Acura guy, so they've worked

728
00:33:30,848 --> 00:33:34,958
really hard to improve their reputation- Mm … just as a, as a

729
00:33:34,958 --> 00:33:38,038
company as a whole, and then their Acura team is just fantastic.

730
00:33:38,158 --> 00:33:38,307
Oh, awesome.

731
00:33:38,307 --> 00:33:39,208
I'm a huge fan.

732
00:33:39,247 --> 00:33:39,678
That's awesome.

733
00:33:39,678 --> 00:33:42,598
So I would comfortably agree with you- Yeah, yeah … and say

734
00:33:42,598 --> 00:33:43,458
it's a clean- I mean, and it's-

735
00:33:43,458 --> 00:33:45,467
clean town … you know, and people would, you know, I'd see

736
00:33:45,467 --> 00:33:48,128
them run from me at the grocery store 'cause they bought a Ford.

737
00:33:48,128 --> 00:33:50,878
I'm like, "I don't sell Fords. That's fine. If you want a Chevrolet, I

738
00:33:50,878 --> 00:33:53,828
hope you, hope you at least give me a call, give me a chance." But it's,

739
00:33:53,828 --> 00:33:58,477
it's pretty good car town, and, and, and the demand here is pretty even.

740
00:33:58,708 --> 00:33:58,738
Mm-hmm.

741
00:33:58,857 --> 00:34:01,507
We don't have the ups and downs like some other cities do, 'cause

742
00:34:01,507 --> 00:34:04,757
we're more insulated with the hospitals and the university here.

743
00:34:04,788 --> 00:34:05,238
Oh, yeah.

744
00:34:05,298 --> 00:34:09,648
So we have a lot of, uh, of s- stability in- Absolutely … that does,

745
00:34:09,648 --> 00:34:12,348
so it doesn't go up and down like crazy, which it does in some places.

746
00:34:12,757 --> 00:34:12,788
Mm-hmm.

747
00:34:12,848 --> 00:34:16,018
Uh, but we did, I mean, there was a huge car strike.

748
00:34:16,348 --> 00:34:17,348
We didn't have any product.

749
00:34:17,931 --> 00:34:21,822
So we started selling watermelons, and we did it as a joke.

750
00:34:21,822 --> 00:34:24,921
We already had a contract with the Knoxville News Sentinel for a certain amount

751
00:34:24,921 --> 00:34:29,202
of ad, of ad space, and so we're like, "Well, we gotta use it, so let's just

752
00:34:29,202 --> 00:34:32,422
put watermelons in it." And we just kinda turned it loose, and everybody got

753
00:34:32,422 --> 00:34:35,842
into it, and we sold them, you know, green exterior, red interior- Mm-hmm

754
00:34:35,842 --> 00:34:37,971
fully seated- … flow-through air.

755
00:34:38,051 --> 00:34:38,082
Mm-hmm.

756
00:34:38,082 --> 00:34:39,111
You know, all the things.

757
00:34:39,111 --> 00:34:43,371
Pinstri- we put a pinstripe on it, and it, it… Well, the AP picked it up.

758
00:34:43,742 --> 00:34:43,772
Mm-hmm.

759
00:34:44,121 --> 00:34:46,221
And we, and we got interviews.

760
00:34:46,342 --> 00:34:50,372
People started calling in, and, and they were $3 apiece, and the salesman

761
00:34:50,372 --> 00:34:53,881
got a dollar of it, and y- you know, we just made the whole big thing.

762
00:34:53,881 --> 00:34:56,782
We put the big truck out on the front of Clinton Highway

763
00:34:56,782 --> 00:34:58,951
and had all the watermelons in it and everything.

764
00:34:59,361 --> 00:35:01,622
And well, we got a call from, like, the BBC.

765
00:35:02,122 --> 00:35:04,971
It was like, oh my gosh, our, our campaign went international.

766
00:35:04,971 --> 00:35:05,701
Wasn't even planned.

767
00:35:05,701 --> 00:35:07,762
It was just, it was viral before there was viral.

768
00:35:07,951 --> 00:35:10,251
And we got picked up on all that, and we just had a good time

769
00:35:10,251 --> 00:35:12,411
with it, but you gotta roll with what you, what you've got.

770
00:35:12,411 --> 00:35:12,541
Yeah.

771
00:35:12,541 --> 00:35:15,602
And financially, going back to that, the boring stuff, you

772
00:35:15,602 --> 00:35:18,571
gotta have the reserves there to withstand that kind of thing.

773
00:35:18,631 --> 00:35:18,721
Right.

774
00:35:18,841 --> 00:35:22,321
And pulling it totally back around to my nonprofits- Mm-hmm … I say,

775
00:35:22,321 --> 00:35:25,351
look, you never know when the next COVID, the next strike, the next-

776
00:35:25,382 --> 00:35:29,812
Right … thing is gonna be, and you have to have the reserves in place.

777
00:35:29,812 --> 00:35:31,662
You have to have that ready to go.

778
00:35:31,961 --> 00:35:35,571
A- a- and I guess I just learned that through all the up and down

779
00:35:35,571 --> 00:35:39,192
times that we had with the car business is, is you, you learn that.

780
00:35:39,281 --> 00:35:40,931
My dad was kind of a Biblical guy.

781
00:35:41,471 --> 00:35:46,122
He also was amazingly hysterical, but he, he would say, "Seven years of

782
00:35:46,122 --> 00:35:49,721
plenty, seven years of famine." And he would say that, and we'd be like,

783
00:35:49,721 --> 00:35:52,851
"Okay, so just because it's good now doesn't mean it's gonna be good later."

784
00:35:52,851 --> 00:35:52,952
Right.

785
00:35:53,232 --> 00:35:54,842
"And just 'cause it's bad now doesn't mean it's

786
00:35:54,842 --> 00:35:57,571
gonna be bad later." So it's that perspective.

787
00:35:59,041 --> 00:36:00,991
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799
00:36:40,107 --> 00:36:40,337
Yeah.

800
00:36:40,587 --> 00:36:44,768
It's very prudent to put yourself in a place where you have the reserves

801
00:36:44,768 --> 00:36:48,348
to make it through the famine, to make it through the, the harder times.

802
00:36:48,567 --> 00:36:51,767
And yeah, I mean, the, for nonprofits, I would imagine this n-

803
00:36:51,848 --> 00:36:55,038
last year has probably been quite the challenge- Mm … just with

804
00:36:55,038 --> 00:36:58,028
everything happening at a governmental level and DOGE and all of

805
00:36:58,028 --> 00:37:01,938
that, and, you know, random fundings just getting canceled for,

806
00:37:02,758 --> 00:37:05,278
as we have seen, I don't know if you've followed any of that.

807
00:37:05,278 --> 00:37:05,678
A little.

808
00:37:05,707 --> 00:37:10,078
But the, um- … 404 Media, by the way, side note for anybody, check 'em out.

809
00:37:10,137 --> 00:37:10,727
They're awesome.

810
00:37:10,967 --> 00:37:15,758
They did an incredible report on the, the DOGE deposition videos, where

811
00:37:15,758 --> 00:37:20,147
they wa- watched every single hour of it, and pulled all the highlights

812
00:37:20,598 --> 00:37:23,217
and all the interesting stuff, and you start to see some of that logic that

813
00:37:23,258 --> 00:37:27,697
they used, or illogic, if you will, that was used to make those decisions.

814
00:37:27,697 --> 00:37:30,568
And, and try, I'm not trying to get political here, but it's crazy,

815
00:37:30,677 --> 00:37:34,267
and I'm sure that had a huge impact on some of these local nonprofits.

816
00:37:34,267 --> 00:37:37,717
I remember we were even talking about one for our business, or talking

817
00:37:37,717 --> 00:37:41,758
to one for our business to help with, and they just ghosted us out of

818
00:37:41,758 --> 00:37:45,438
the blue, just… And I'm sure it had to do with, like, financial changes

819
00:37:45,438 --> 00:37:48,707
and things like that, just with funding and government grants and stuff.

820
00:37:48,707 --> 00:37:50,578
So yeah, it's a wild time right now.

821
00:37:50,698 --> 00:37:50,948
It,

822
00:37:50,948 --> 00:37:51,567
it is wild.

823
00:37:51,607 --> 00:37:56,717
And the organizations that are more flexible, that have, have the reserve-

824
00:37:56,927 --> 00:37:59,488
Mm-hmm … in place… Well, let's talk about reserves for a second.

825
00:38:00,217 --> 00:38:02,618
You have to have reserves, because you don't know what's coming.

826
00:38:02,728 --> 00:38:06,258
It, just like you, you wouldn't run your life if you had a choice

827
00:38:06,457 --> 00:38:09,548
without a savings account, without, you know, the s- the, the

828
00:38:09,548 --> 00:38:12,537
people say you should have 60 to 90 days or six months- Right

829
00:38:12,537 --> 00:38:15,067
or whatever it is, you know, to, to, to back you up.

830
00:38:15,287 --> 00:38:17,467
And nonprofits are the same way, because you don't know

831
00:38:17,467 --> 00:38:19,298
what's coming and you don't know what's gonna happen.

832
00:38:19,787 --> 00:38:23,357
You also wanna diversify your income, your revenue.

833
00:38:23,758 --> 00:38:29,088
So if you're completely grant funded, then if grants go away, so do you.

834
00:38:29,567 --> 00:38:32,037
So what can you do to diversify that funding

835
00:38:32,037 --> 00:38:34,667
base so that you're not so critically involved?

836
00:38:34,878 --> 00:38:37,887
Donors, at least for the organizations that I work with,

837
00:38:37,887 --> 00:38:40,667
and I mostly work with organizations in East Tennessee.

838
00:38:40,967 --> 00:38:42,927
I have some clients elsewhere, but it's just,

839
00:38:42,927 --> 00:38:44,838
uh, that's how the referral base has worked.

840
00:38:45,067 --> 00:38:47,518
Most of them, their donors hang in with them.

841
00:38:47,857 --> 00:38:49,178
They're like, "Oh, you're having trouble.

842
00:38:49,178 --> 00:38:51,527
I'm, I'm, I'm gonna still support you."

843
00:38:51,717 --> 00:38:56,598
So that's the positive thing about having a strong major donor base

844
00:38:56,928 --> 00:39:00,757
that you continue to engage and keep involved in your organization so

845
00:39:00,757 --> 00:39:03,667
they understand and they're willing to help you through difficult times.

846
00:39:04,158 --> 00:39:06,697
But a lot of these nonprofits, especially the smaller

847
00:39:06,697 --> 00:39:09,538
ones, tend to live, like I said, hand to mouth.

848
00:39:10,254 --> 00:39:12,414
So as soon as they get the money in, they wanna spend it.

849
00:39:12,754 --> 00:39:15,083
And some people think, "Oh, I can't make a profit.

850
00:39:15,174 --> 00:39:17,723
I can't have r- extra reserves 'cause I'm a non-profit."

851
00:39:18,314 --> 00:39:21,264
And I often kinda quip with them, I'll say, "Well, a

852
00:39:21,264 --> 00:39:24,453
non-profit is a, a tax status, not a business plan." Mm-hmm.

853
00:39:25,033 --> 00:39:31,063
So we want to have at least 90 days, hopefully 180 days of cash.

854
00:39:31,063 --> 00:39:34,223
And when you get to a certain point, you invest that so that

855
00:39:34,223 --> 00:39:37,473
you are, the money is earning, and then you, y- you don't

856
00:39:37,473 --> 00:39:40,014
wanna keep everything you make, but you, y- 'cause you wanna do

857
00:39:40,014 --> 00:39:42,353
your mission, but you have to build that long-term stability.

858
00:39:42,353 --> 00:39:42,413
Mm-hmm.

859
00:39:42,844 --> 00:39:46,283
Because when you have problems, typically that's

860
00:39:46,283 --> 00:39:48,634
also when your clientele is having issues.

861
00:39:49,419 --> 00:39:52,350
So you've got to be stable for, for them, um,

862
00:39:52,350 --> 00:39:54,600
especially if you're in the social enterprise area.

863
00:39:54,790 --> 00:39:58,770
So let- let's build you up so that you can be that solid rock

864
00:39:59,169 --> 00:40:03,379
foundation for these, for your constituents when, when that happens.

865
00:40:03,820 --> 00:40:06,969
One of the biggest things we ran into most recently was not

866
00:40:06,969 --> 00:40:10,410
necessarily funding getting cut, but funding getting delayed.

867
00:40:10,799 --> 00:40:15,840
A lot of government grants work, they give you the grant, which means they

868
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:19,510
tell you you're going to get it, but then you have to perform everything

869
00:40:20,279 --> 00:40:24,140
using the money that you have, and then you, you b- you get reimbursed.

870
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:26,880
And so most government grants are reimbursement

871
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:29,299
grants, which is fine as long as everything's flowing.

872
00:40:29,299 --> 00:40:29,329
Mm-hmm.

873
00:40:29,899 --> 00:40:31,529
But when the government shuts down for several

874
00:40:31,529 --> 00:40:34,110
months, what happens is that funding gets delayed.

875
00:40:34,180 --> 00:40:34,209
Mm-hmm.

876
00:40:34,500 --> 00:40:36,649
So let's say that you worked from the

877
00:40:36,649 --> 00:40:40,930
beginning of January '25 through September '25.

878
00:40:40,930 --> 00:40:41,160
Mm-hmm.

879
00:40:41,939 --> 00:40:46,470
You spent $250,000 doing whatever it was, and you send

880
00:40:46,470 --> 00:40:50,079
your, all your, your information back into your agency,

881
00:40:50,110 --> 00:40:51,849
your government agency, and say, "We've done this.

882
00:40:51,849 --> 00:40:52,649
Here's our proof.

883
00:40:53,099 --> 00:40:55,349
We did what we're supposed to do." Fantastic,

884
00:40:55,379 --> 00:40:56,379
and then the government shuts down.

885
00:40:56,479 --> 00:40:56,510
Mm-hmm.

886
00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:01,709
And they don't get that $250,000 back until December, January, February.

887
00:41:01,970 --> 00:41:04,659
Now they have a cash flow problem, and cash flow will kill you.

888
00:41:04,659 --> 00:41:08,479
Uh, uh, in small business, in, in nonprofit, it'll kill you in a second.

889
00:41:08,729 --> 00:41:12,269
So now you've got people rushing to get lines of credit, and

890
00:41:12,269 --> 00:41:14,640
they're going to donors, and they're having to have these

891
00:41:15,190 --> 00:41:18,059
oh my gosh moments with donors, which is never a good thing.

892
00:41:18,349 --> 00:41:21,620
So building reserves kind of helps that, but that's, that's

893
00:41:21,620 --> 00:41:24,120
an issue is, is when you don't get that money in time.

894
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:25,190
And it's money you've earned.

895
00:41:25,190 --> 00:41:27,390
It's reve- it's revenue technically, but you

896
00:41:27,390 --> 00:41:29,339
don't have the cash, and that's a tough one.

897
00:41:29,339 --> 00:41:32,360
That, that's probably one of the hardest ones to, to work around.

898
00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:35,629
And if, if a grant completely gets canceled, you at least

899
00:41:35,629 --> 00:41:37,830
know that up front- Mm-hmm … before you spend the money.

900
00:41:38,169 --> 00:41:41,419
A huge change in a donor base will do that as well, but

901
00:41:41,820 --> 00:41:44,860
we don't, we don't really have that volatile of a donor

902
00:41:44,860 --> 00:41:47,570
base here in Knoxville, so that's not as big a deal.

903
00:41:47,599 --> 00:41:50,570
But that, that government funding getting delayed like

904
00:41:50,570 --> 00:41:52,390
that was a, was a big problem for a lot of people.

905
00:41:52,820 --> 00:41:52,959
Yeah.

906
00:41:53,159 --> 00:41:56,320
Oh, I, I can imagine, and seems like anymore, like anything

907
00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:59,830
government related's gonna be somewhat uncertain in the moment.

908
00:42:00,250 --> 00:42:03,899
But with that, with the challenges, I mean, like you said, Knoxville,

909
00:42:03,899 --> 00:42:07,050
Knoxville's very interesting with nonprofits from my understanding.

910
00:42:07,300 --> 00:42:11,110
We have a lot of nonprofits, more than most cities, and we

911
00:42:11,110 --> 00:42:13,990
also have, at least per capita I've heard, and then also,

912
00:42:13,990 --> 00:42:16,300
yeah, like you said, the donor base is really big here.

913
00:42:16,300 --> 00:42:19,289
So yeah, there's a lot of generous people in this town.

914
00:42:19,419 --> 00:42:22,710
There really are, and there are just so many… I mean, you've

915
00:42:22,710 --> 00:42:26,130
got, uh, you know, several families that have supported The

916
00:42:26,130 --> 00:42:29,039
nonprofit world in the, in East Tennessee forever and ever.

917
00:42:29,250 --> 00:42:33,620
Those families may or may not continue that, but it's a very generous area.

918
00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:36,590
You, you said something about having a lot of nonprofits-

919
00:42:36,620 --> 00:42:38,359
Mm … and that's something that's interesting.

920
00:42:38,710 --> 00:42:41,859
The explosion in the number of nonprofits in the last

921
00:42:41,859 --> 00:42:45,070
probably 10 to 15 years- Mm-hmm … is really interesting.

922
00:42:45,109 --> 00:42:49,689
And I had a professor tell me one time at UT, Alex Miller, I don't know if

923
00:42:49,689 --> 00:42:53,609
you know him, but he's kind of the nonprofit guru of the university, and

924
00:42:53,609 --> 00:42:57,939
he told me, or told a class that I was helping teach and I was listening,

925
00:42:57,939 --> 00:43:02,730
and he was saying that if you choose a certain area of town in Knoxville,

926
00:43:02,849 --> 00:43:05,919
and he named it, but I can't remember where it was, so I don't wanna guess.

927
00:43:05,980 --> 00:43:09,890
He said there are 500 separate nonprofits that claim

928
00:43:09,890 --> 00:43:12,870
to be in the food scarcity space on that block.

929
00:43:13,599 --> 00:43:16,300
I'm sitting there thinking to myself, w- do we have the ham and cheese

930
00:43:16,300 --> 00:43:19,270
ministry, the p- Mm … pimento cheese ministry, and the chicken soup ministry?

931
00:43:19,270 --> 00:43:19,910
What are we doing?

932
00:43:20,070 --> 00:43:24,829
And he said, "We have a lot of nonprofits trying to do the same thing."

933
00:43:26,059 --> 00:43:30,580
And there is a tendency to, "Oh, let's go start a nonprofit," when

934
00:43:30,580 --> 00:43:34,849
sometimes your idea might be better served as a program of a larger

935
00:43:34,849 --> 00:43:38,219
nonprofit, because there are economies to scale for this thing.

936
00:43:38,639 --> 00:43:41,719
And so starting a small nonprofit and struggling and

937
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:44,810
struggling and struggling i- is not always the best plan.

938
00:43:45,380 --> 00:43:47,679
And so nonprofits sometimes fail.

939
00:43:47,739 --> 00:43:50,070
Smaller nonprofits sometimes fail for that reason.

940
00:43:50,460 --> 00:43:53,999
But sometimes there are nonprofits out there doing that very thing.

941
00:43:53,999 --> 00:43:54,960
You just may not know about it.

942
00:43:55,169 --> 00:43:57,710
So I have a lot of people that will come to me and say, "I'm thinking

943
00:43:57,710 --> 00:44:01,660
about starting a nonprofit." And I, and I do a couple of things.

944
00:44:01,730 --> 00:44:04,570
A first thing I do is I say, "Well, who else is doing this?"

945
00:44:05,419 --> 00:44:08,140
And, "Uh, I don't know." I'm like, "Okay, here's your homework.

946
00:44:09,079 --> 00:44:10,520
You know, we're gonna make a business plan.

947
00:44:11,059 --> 00:44:12,829
And so who's doing it already?

948
00:44:12,829 --> 00:44:14,300
What is your competitive analysis?

949
00:44:14,300 --> 00:44:15,180
Who's doing it already?

950
00:44:15,449 --> 00:44:16,840
How, how would you fund this?

951
00:44:17,169 --> 00:44:18,079
Who are you gonna serve?

952
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:19,189
Define who you're gonna serve.

953
00:44:19,579 --> 00:44:21,099
Define what the needs are.

954
00:44:21,180 --> 00:44:24,770
Define how your program is going to fulfill those needs, and tell

955
00:44:24,770 --> 00:44:28,070
me how that's better than what somebody else is doing." Mm-hmm.

956
00:44:28,070 --> 00:44:29,090
Really get them thinking.

957
00:44:29,090 --> 00:44:33,839
Mm. And if they take that and come back, then I'm like, "Okay, I got something

958
00:44:33,839 --> 00:44:37,159
solid," because now they're thinking about it, and now they're doing it.

959
00:44:37,159 --> 00:44:38,900
A lot of times I'll give people that homework, and

960
00:44:38,900 --> 00:44:41,239
they take it, and I don't hear from them again.

961
00:44:41,710 --> 00:44:43,650
But they take it, and they come back, then we keep going, and

962
00:44:43,650 --> 00:44:45,830
we said, "Okay, what's your niche gonna be? What… How are

963
00:44:45,830 --> 00:44:48,690
you going to do something better, and how are you going to

964
00:44:48,690 --> 00:44:52,390
show with metrics or, or that what you're doing is effective?"

965
00:44:52,540 --> 00:44:55,519
And I said, "You know, you, you've gotta quantify your mission."

966
00:44:55,559 --> 00:44:58,360
For example, let's say you wanna be in the hunger space.

967
00:44:58,699 --> 00:45:03,500
Mm. One mission or one purpose would be to meet people where they

968
00:45:03,500 --> 00:45:06,400
are when they're hungry, and that's your proverbial soup kitchen.

969
00:45:07,070 --> 00:45:07,940
These are hungry people.

970
00:45:07,940 --> 00:45:08,890
They need to be fed right now.

971
00:45:08,890 --> 00:45:11,610
They have an immediate emergency-type need.

972
00:45:12,030 --> 00:45:13,000
That's easy to measure.

973
00:45:13,479 --> 00:45:14,680
How many mouths did you feed?

974
00:45:14,769 --> 00:45:16,019
How many meals did you provide?

975
00:45:16,019 --> 00:45:16,549
W- whatever.

976
00:45:17,220 --> 00:45:18,919
But what if we're gonna solve hunger?

977
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:22,699
So you're gonna… Instead of just, just feed… I say just not because

978
00:45:22,699 --> 00:45:27,699
it's incon- inconsequential, but it's… So instead of feeding people- Mm

979
00:45:27,699 --> 00:45:28,750
we're going to solve hunger.

980
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:33,489
Well, that's a whole societal, cultural issue that we're facing.

981
00:45:33,489 --> 00:45:34,919
We, we've gotta support the family.

982
00:45:34,919 --> 00:45:36,030
They might need education.

983
00:45:36,030 --> 00:45:37,119
They might need h- housing.

984
00:45:37,119 --> 00:45:39,919
They might need… We, we don't… I mean, that's a much bigger thing.

985
00:45:39,949 --> 00:45:41,949
How do you measure that, and what kind of

986
00:45:41,949 --> 00:45:43,830
timeframe are you gonna measure that on?

987
00:45:44,190 --> 00:45:46,399
So you've gotta decide what you're doing.

988
00:45:46,860 --> 00:45:49,490
Are you f- feeding the hungry, or are you solving hunger?

989
00:45:49,910 --> 00:45:49,940
Mm-hmm.

990
00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:53,880
And, and that mission clarity will get you a long way to

991
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:56,399
understanding what kind of organization you have to be.

992
00:45:56,929 --> 00:45:59,330
And then another thing I ask them is, "What

993
00:45:59,330 --> 00:46:02,704
position are you gonna hold?" in this organization."

994
00:46:03,114 --> 00:46:05,574
And they'll go, "I'm gonna be the executive director." I'm like,

995
00:46:05,574 --> 00:46:10,303
"Congratulations, you report to a board." So you may have all of the great

996
00:46:10,343 --> 00:46:14,933
ideas and amazing passion and all of this stuff, and you're gonna report

997
00:46:14,933 --> 00:46:19,823
to a board who may or may not share that with you and who can fire you.

998
00:46:20,304 --> 00:46:25,753
And it is not unusual for a founding executive director to be

999
00:46:26,173 --> 00:46:32,292
let go by their board 10, 15 years down the road Because the same

1000
00:46:32,292 --> 00:46:35,732
person that's the entrepreneurial nonprofit starter-upper- Mm-hmm

1001
00:46:36,471 --> 00:46:38,922
may not be the person that can take them to the next level.

1002
00:46:39,241 --> 00:46:42,882
And so I said, you know, for me, if I was going to start

1003
00:46:42,882 --> 00:46:45,451
a nonprofit, I would like to be the chairman of the

1004
00:46:45,451 --> 00:46:49,061
board, because that is the position of power, if you will.

1005
00:46:49,112 --> 00:46:50,602
Not that I'm all power hungry about it.

1006
00:46:50,602 --> 00:46:50,661
Right.

1007
00:46:50,661 --> 00:46:53,811
But that's the position of, of… But you can't get paid- Mm

1008
00:46:54,061 --> 00:46:55,922
being, uh, the, the director of the board.

1009
00:46:55,922 --> 00:46:59,221
So that, it's a, it's a tough thing to figure out, and I said, "You've got

1010
00:46:59,221 --> 00:47:02,831
to understand that if you start this and you put all this blood, sweat,

1011
00:47:02,831 --> 00:47:06,101
and tears into it, you may not be the person that finishes it out." Yeah.

1012
00:47:06,582 --> 00:47:09,592
And, and it's just a reality that, that happens.

1013
00:47:09,592 --> 00:47:11,742
So, but anyway, I've, we've started a couple

1014
00:47:11,772 --> 00:47:13,752
and, um, it's, they've been successful.

1015
00:47:14,042 --> 00:47:16,842
We try to set them on, like, "We need to do this

1016
00:47:16,842 --> 00:47:19,371
in year one. You can't do 70 things at once." Yeah.

1017
00:47:19,781 --> 00:47:20,731
"You can do about four." Mm-hmm.

1018
00:47:21,182 --> 00:47:24,101
"So let's do these four things, and then we'll move on and do these

1019
00:47:24,101 --> 00:47:27,452
four things, and these four things," and like I said, I just, I love it.

1020
00:47:27,452 --> 00:47:29,292
I just get excited thinking about it.

1021
00:47:29,382 --> 00:47:29,562
Yeah.

1022
00:47:29,562 --> 00:47:29,801
So.

1023
00:47:29,801 --> 00:47:33,972
It's, I mean, that, that's awesome, and I, I love that, like, you're,

1024
00:47:33,972 --> 00:47:37,741
you're taking a very practical approach to it, I think, with asking

1025
00:47:37,741 --> 00:47:40,601
people to really think about what they're doing, you know, building

1026
00:47:40,601 --> 00:47:43,502
from a place of, you know, positioning themselves in the right way.

1027
00:47:43,502 --> 00:47:48,332
'Cause as many nonprofits as we have here, like, okay, cool.

1028
00:47:48,792 --> 00:47:49,811
You're starting a nonprofit.

1029
00:47:49,811 --> 00:47:50,002
Mm-hmm.

1030
00:47:50,002 --> 00:47:50,372
Neat.

1031
00:47:50,421 --> 00:47:51,491
Everybody else has one.

1032
00:47:51,682 --> 00:47:52,122
Yes.

1033
00:47:52,281 --> 00:47:52,972
Not really, but-

1034
00:47:52,972 --> 00:47:53,832
No, but I, yeah.

1035
00:47:53,832 --> 00:47:54,512
There's a lot of them.

1036
00:47:54,512 --> 00:47:55,211
You know what I'm saying.

1037
00:47:55,211 --> 00:47:57,622
There's a lot, and so I think forcing people

1038
00:47:57,622 --> 00:47:58,961
to think about it's always a good thing.

1039
00:47:59,002 --> 00:48:01,521
I mean, we, we do that with our business, because,

1040
00:48:02,042 --> 00:48:04,061
you know, how many podcasts are there out there?

1041
00:48:04,122 --> 00:48:07,391
There's a lot of them, and there's a lot of dead ones too.

1042
00:48:07,692 --> 00:48:10,192
And, you know, you, you don't wanna tread on toes, you don't

1043
00:48:10,192 --> 00:48:12,402
wanna be sued, you don't wanna do something that somebody's

1044
00:48:12,402 --> 00:48:14,851
already done, and how do you bring a unique voice to it?

1045
00:48:15,042 --> 00:48:15,101
Mm-hmm.

1046
00:48:15,101 --> 00:48:17,582
And I think with nonprofits it's the same thing.

1047
00:48:17,792 --> 00:48:19,811
Trying to bring a unique voice to something and,

1048
00:48:19,881 --> 00:48:23,641
and not treading on toes or having territory wars.

1049
00:48:23,641 --> 00:48:25,341
I mean, you're, you're in it to help people.

1050
00:48:25,372 --> 00:48:25,461
Right.

1051
00:48:25,711 --> 00:48:27,311
You shouldn't be fighting other people

1052
00:48:27,341 --> 00:48:30,381
locally for resources or money or donations.

1053
00:48:30,792 --> 00:48:30,851
Yeah.

1054
00:48:30,881 --> 00:48:33,131
You should be in a space that people feel like, "I'm not

1055
00:48:33,131 --> 00:48:36,982
just giving to the fifth organization to do the same thing

1056
00:48:36,982 --> 00:48:39,412
in-" Right … you know, two years or whatnot." Mm-hmm.

1057
00:48:39,712 --> 00:48:44,302
Yes, and there, there may actually be, heaven forbid

1058
00:48:44,302 --> 00:48:46,981
I say this, there may actually be too many nonprofits.

1059
00:48:47,242 --> 00:48:51,912
And it may be that over time, this ac- acceleration that

1060
00:48:51,912 --> 00:48:54,572
we're seeing in the number of nonprofits may actually go

1061
00:48:54,572 --> 00:48:56,931
back down, because I don't know that it's sustainable.

1062
00:48:57,041 --> 00:48:58,781
But that's, that's a problem for another person

1063
00:48:58,781 --> 00:49:01,031
with a much bigger picture than, than I have.

1064
00:49:01,061 --> 00:49:03,401
But, um, I wonder- Sure … if it's sustainable.

1065
00:49:03,481 --> 00:49:06,522
And, and I, and I tell people that when they talk to me about starting one.

1066
00:49:06,522 --> 00:49:08,031
And that's, I'm not trying to throw water on your

1067
00:49:08,031 --> 00:49:10,502
fire here, but, but it may not be sustainable.

1068
00:49:10,811 --> 00:49:11,022
Yeah.

1069
00:49:11,171 --> 00:49:13,442
The inverse of that's what I see in the media world a

1070
00:49:13,442 --> 00:49:17,785
lot, which is- I wanna do video production for nonprofits.

1071
00:49:18,305 --> 00:49:18,335
Mm-hmm.

1072
00:49:18,335 --> 00:49:21,836
And the number of organizations that I've run into that say,

1073
00:49:21,836 --> 00:49:24,795
"I wanna work with nonprofits and do that for nonprofits,"

1074
00:49:24,795 --> 00:49:27,845
I'm always like, "That's admirable, but, like, what are you…

1075
00:49:27,845 --> 00:49:31,235
Like, how does that different from doing any other business?" And

1076
00:49:31,466 --> 00:49:33,776
I don't know, I've always found it really interesting that that's

1077
00:49:33,776 --> 00:49:39,446
another common, like, supporting cottage industries for, um,

1078
00:49:39,446 --> 00:49:43,046
nonprofits is also a business in and of itself, if that makes sense.

1079
00:49:43,345 --> 00:49:45,036
But I don't know, I've just, I've run into a lot of video

1080
00:49:45,036 --> 00:49:47,245
production folks that are like, "We do this with nonprofits."

1081
00:49:47,245 --> 00:49:49,975
I'm like- Yeah … "Okay, cool. Good for you."

1082
00:49:50,096 --> 00:49:53,446
One of the things that I've done, I think I've done it two or three times now,

1083
00:49:53,666 --> 00:49:59,004
is I've actually helped businesses That are B2B- Mm-hmm … that work with

1084
00:49:59,004 --> 00:50:05,034
other businesses understand nonprofits and figure out how to work with them.

1085
00:50:05,204 --> 00:50:08,433
'Cause remember I said that the decision process is very slow?

1086
00:50:08,814 --> 00:50:10,503
But it's also slow on the other end.

1087
00:50:11,154 --> 00:50:13,863
Like, if you can get their business, it's, it's

1088
00:50:13,863 --> 00:50:17,314
harder to lose because th- that process is so slow.

1089
00:50:17,514 --> 00:50:17,574
Yeah.

1090
00:50:17,744 --> 00:50:20,863
So, um, I was working with a marketing company one time, and

1091
00:50:20,863 --> 00:50:23,164
they had nonprofit clients, and they were just like, "I'm

1092
00:50:23,164 --> 00:50:25,393
so frustrated with them 'cause they won't get back to me."

1093
00:50:25,393 --> 00:50:28,074
And I'm like, "They gotta take everything to a committee, and that committee

1094
00:50:28,074 --> 00:50:31,183
is made of volunteers who may or may not be available to meet for three weeks.

1095
00:50:31,233 --> 00:50:35,793
And, and so your timeline may have to be different." 'Cause

1096
00:50:35,904 --> 00:50:38,973
this particular company prided themselves in turning something

1097
00:50:38,973 --> 00:50:40,964
around really quickly, and I said, "I don't think they care."

1098
00:50:41,363 --> 00:50:41,394
Mm-hmm.

1099
00:50:41,593 --> 00:50:45,014
So if you're going to work with nonprofits, you may need to change that model.

1100
00:50:45,494 --> 00:50:45,584
Right.

1101
00:50:45,674 --> 00:50:48,694
And you may have to allow for multiple decision-makers.

1102
00:50:48,694 --> 00:50:51,714
You may have to allow for this consensus-building to happen.

1103
00:50:52,104 --> 00:50:56,084
Uh, and I said y- and that if I'm coaching you as a business that's

1104
00:50:56,084 --> 00:50:58,854
working with nonprofits, insist on one point of communication.

1105
00:50:59,014 --> 00:51:01,494
You still have to deal with other people, but insist on one

1106
00:51:01,494 --> 00:51:04,574
point because that's gonna force them to give you one point.

1107
00:51:05,034 --> 00:51:07,083
Understand that some of the terminology that

1108
00:51:07,083 --> 00:51:09,733
you use for for-profits is scary in nonprofits.

1109
00:51:09,733 --> 00:51:11,083
They don't like to hear about profit.

1110
00:51:11,083 --> 00:51:12,013
They like to hear about revenue.

1111
00:51:12,443 --> 00:51:13,934
They don't like to hear about marketing.

1112
00:51:13,934 --> 00:51:15,354
They like to hear about PR.

1113
00:51:15,733 --> 00:51:18,623
They don't want… Y- So, so you may have to change your lingo

1114
00:51:18,623 --> 00:51:22,833
a little bit- Mm … to, to attract some of the nonprofit world.

1115
00:51:22,833 --> 00:51:25,233
Just as you would if you were gonna s- focus on

1116
00:51:25,233 --> 00:51:27,833
healthcare or you're gonna focus on another industry.

1117
00:51:27,833 --> 00:51:29,724
You have to understand how their decision-making

1118
00:51:29,724 --> 00:51:32,544
works and be able to, to model to that.

1119
00:51:32,574 --> 00:51:36,434
And so I've helped a couple of just for-profit companies kind of work

1120
00:51:36,434 --> 00:51:39,843
through that, what's that gonna look like if I'm gonna deal with nonprofits?

1121
00:51:40,244 --> 00:51:41,324
Yeah, it's a different world.

1122
00:51:41,403 --> 00:51:45,474
I've worked with nonprofits off and on, on the business side as well, and

1123
00:51:46,053 --> 00:51:49,684
seen exactly what you're talking about with the time it takes to make a

1124
00:51:49,684 --> 00:51:52,803
decision and get back and, you know, just as a s- the salesperson in me

1125
00:51:52,803 --> 00:51:56,013
is always thinking, like, "What's your decision-making process like?"

1126
00:51:56,044 --> 00:51:56,114
Yes.

1127
00:51:56,114 --> 00:51:58,934
And asking that up front so that- Mm-hmm … you know what to expect and-

1128
00:51:59,114 --> 00:51:59,593
Exactly

1129
00:51:59,623 --> 00:51:59,964
…
um-

1130
00:51:59,994 --> 00:52:00,534
Exactly

1131
00:52:00,564 --> 00:52:03,814
…
and just make sure you're not gonna harass them too frequently about-

1132
00:52:03,953 --> 00:52:04,273
Right

1133
00:52:04,453 --> 00:52:05,463
…
when's the decision gonna be made?

1134
00:52:05,463 --> 00:52:05,993
When's the decision-

1135
00:52:05,993 --> 00:52:06,224
When can I know?

1136
00:52:06,224 --> 00:52:06,843
… gonna get made?

1137
00:52:06,924 --> 00:52:09,564
And, uh- Yeah … and if you're, if you're on any kind of, um,

1138
00:52:09,804 --> 00:52:14,054
of sales quota, it's harder because it's gonna take longer.

1139
00:52:14,103 --> 00:52:18,156
And, and if you're- Sales manager doesn't, your boss, your sales manager doesn't

1140
00:52:18,206 --> 00:52:21,805
understand that you've got that situation, then they may be kicking you to

1141
00:52:21,805 --> 00:52:25,385
say, "Hey, why can't you close this deal?" Like, well, it- it's a nonprofit

1142
00:52:25,385 --> 00:52:28,345
deal, and it's gonna take three months instead of one month or something.

1143
00:52:28,826 --> 00:52:31,746
But like I said, they're probably not gonna kick you out as quickly either,

1144
00:52:31,746 --> 00:52:35,836
because the decision on the other side, if they, if you make a mistake,

1145
00:52:36,266 --> 00:52:38,756
there's not one person that's gonna go, "Oh, yeah, you're, you're out of here."

1146
00:52:39,105 --> 00:52:40,295
That, again, has gotta go through.

1147
00:52:40,295 --> 00:52:43,945
So you've got time to remedy your error or whatever the

1148
00:52:44,176 --> 00:52:47,115
relationship issue is that … And most nonprofits are

1149
00:52:47,555 --> 00:52:50,356
generally pretty, uh, "Okay, okay, just fix it." Yeah.

1150
00:52:50,356 --> 00:52:50,795
You know?

1151
00:52:50,976 --> 00:52:52,145
And we're, and we're good.

1152
00:52:52,615 --> 00:52:52,746
Yeah.

1153
00:52:52,746 --> 00:52:56,115
You're there to help them in a way that they can't.

1154
00:52:56,505 --> 00:52:59,466
And I think that a lot of times, once you get in and develop

1155
00:52:59,466 --> 00:53:02,795
a good relationship, you're right, you have that long-term

1156
00:53:02,985 --> 00:53:05,376
extended relationship, and it's always really positive.

1157
00:53:05,485 --> 00:53:08,606
And that's what we've seen for the most part, is you get in good

1158
00:53:08,606 --> 00:53:11,226
with a nonprofit, and they're gonna rely on you for things, and

1159
00:53:11,226 --> 00:53:13,385
they may even start relying on you for more things, 'cause they

1160
00:53:13,385 --> 00:53:16,266
realize, "Oh, you can also do that. Oh, and you could help us

1161
00:53:16,266 --> 00:53:18,505
with this, and if we wanted to go this direction," you know?

1162
00:53:18,505 --> 00:53:21,456
And so it becomes a very, they can be very fruitful.

1163
00:53:21,456 --> 00:53:24,355
So I, I get the value in working with them, and I enjoy working with them.

1164
00:53:24,355 --> 00:53:27,465
I always … You can tell me if I'm right on this or not, but I always tell

1165
00:53:27,465 --> 00:53:31,976
people, "Don't immediately discount your services for a nonprofit just because

1166
00:53:31,976 --> 00:53:34,935
they're a nonprofit either, or at least don't give away everything for free."

1167
00:53:35,056 --> 00:53:37,476
I think that's the propensity, and that's what I always get concerned

1168
00:53:37,476 --> 00:53:41,005
with when people say they work with nonprofits, is are you operating

1169
00:53:41,005 --> 00:53:44,365
at a lower budget level- Mm-hmm … just to work with a nonprofit?

1170
00:53:44,365 --> 00:53:45,236
Sometimes you have to.

1171
00:53:45,236 --> 00:53:45,806
Sometimes you have to.

1172
00:53:45,806 --> 00:53:46,895
And sometimes it's okay.

1173
00:53:46,925 --> 00:53:46,986
Yeah.

1174
00:53:47,446 --> 00:53:50,666
But just going at it first and being like, "Here's

1175
00:53:50,666 --> 00:53:53,726
a, you know, free, free year of service"- Right

1176
00:53:53,935 --> 00:53:57,986
you know, without thinking how it's, what's in it for you or how it would

1177
00:53:57,986 --> 00:54:01,636
benefit, I think a lot of people get just caught up in serving and helping,

1178
00:54:01,636 --> 00:54:06,626
which is good, but without thinking about the business side of it, if you will.

1179
00:54:06,986 --> 00:54:08,206
I hope that doesn't sound too callous.

1180
00:54:08,206 --> 00:54:08,715
I'm not trying to make it that

1181
00:54:08,715 --> 00:54:08,806
way.

1182
00:54:08,806 --> 00:54:08,895
No.

1183
00:54:08,895 --> 00:54:09,486
No, not at all.

1184
00:54:09,486 --> 00:54:11,965
And I, and on some levels, you get what you pay for.

1185
00:54:11,995 --> 00:54:12,315
Mm-hmm.

1186
00:54:12,315 --> 00:54:17,615
And, and so unless you have a … You're, you're basically asking

1187
00:54:18,261 --> 00:54:21,862
Uh, a nonprofit in this position is asking someone for a donation.

1188
00:54:22,212 --> 00:54:23,901
They're basically asking for a reduction in

1189
00:54:23,901 --> 00:54:26,402
service costs or, or more services for free.

1190
00:54:26,402 --> 00:54:31,211
It- that's a donation, because the market value of that product is higher.

1191
00:54:31,211 --> 00:54:31,282
Mm-hmm.

1192
00:54:31,961 --> 00:54:33,652
So it is an in-kind donation.

1193
00:54:33,871 --> 00:54:37,131
And I'll talk to my nonprofits, says, "You gotta look at it this way. So if you

1194
00:54:37,131 --> 00:54:41,482
don't have a relationship with this organization," uh, like say it's you, okay?

1195
00:54:41,482 --> 00:54:43,482
And I say, "You don't have a relationship with HumblePod.

1196
00:54:44,051 --> 00:54:46,211
You don't, you've never met Chris before.

1197
00:54:46,551 --> 00:54:50,222
You have no … He has never heard of your nonprofit before.

1198
00:54:50,821 --> 00:54:54,762
Why would you expect him to do something for you just because you have

1199
00:54:54,762 --> 00:54:58,911
the nonprofit- Right … in your name?" Now, if Chris is on your board,

1200
00:54:59,521 --> 00:55:03,291
and Chris loves your organization, and he's been to 17 of your events,

1201
00:55:03,291 --> 00:55:06,372
and he's, he's done all these things, then yeah, Chris is engaged with

1202
00:55:06,372 --> 00:55:09,131
your organization and he's perfectly great to ask him for- Well, I would

1203
00:55:09,131 --> 00:55:10,352
be a pushover at that point

1204
00:55:10,352 --> 00:55:10,451
too

1205
00:55:10,451 --> 00:55:12,262
for, for, for some kind of, of thing.

1206
00:55:12,291 --> 00:55:15,262
I said, but, um, I think the expectation, it's, it's a little

1207
00:55:15,262 --> 00:55:18,552
entitled to go, in my opinion, to go in and ask for that.

1208
00:55:18,731 --> 00:55:20,891
And, you know, sometimes the nonprofits that

1209
00:55:20,891 --> 00:55:22,821
need it most are the ones that can't afford it.

1210
00:55:22,821 --> 00:55:22,851
Mm-hmm.

1211
00:55:23,351 --> 00:55:26,171
And so you run into that, and you have to make, and then the organization,

1212
00:55:26,171 --> 00:55:28,702
the business has to make its decision of, of what it's gonna do.

1213
00:55:29,101 --> 00:55:33,061
But I, I, I really discourage my nonprofits from, for just expecting it.

1214
00:55:33,092 --> 00:55:37,641
I said, "Ultimately, you need to be a good enough organization on the

1215
00:55:37,641 --> 00:55:41,241
resources side and the mission side that you can afford the services you

1216
00:55:41,241 --> 00:55:45,501
need to do your job." And no, we're not all going to make a, a million

1217
00:55:45,501 --> 00:55:49,391
dollars, and we're not all going to just spend money wildly on, on

1218
00:55:49,681 --> 00:55:52,702
Because we're a mission-based organization, but if, if you need

1219
00:55:53,421 --> 00:55:55,711
accounting services, you need to pay for accounting services.

1220
00:55:55,711 --> 00:55:55,802
Right.

1221
00:55:55,802 --> 00:55:59,211
If you need marketing services, you need to pay for marketing services.

1222
00:55:59,522 --> 00:56:03,052
Now, on the other hand, if you're in the nonprofit, never hurts to ask, right?

1223
00:56:03,372 --> 00:56:03,802
Oh, yeah.

1224
00:56:04,132 --> 00:56:07,202
And, and absolutely should, and absolutely I would never- Um

1225
00:56:07,592 --> 00:56:09,421
not consider it or help.

1226
00:56:09,421 --> 00:56:09,751
Mm-hmm.

1227
00:56:09,781 --> 00:56:10,461
But I,

1228
00:56:10,461 --> 00:56:10,662
yeah.

1229
00:56:10,662 --> 00:56:13,781
But, uh, I said the expectation- Well said … is, is, uh, I

1230
00:56:13,781 --> 00:56:16,722
think the expectation is a little out of place, in my opinion.

1231
00:56:17,082 --> 00:56:18,632
People will disagree with me on that, but.

1232
00:56:19,192 --> 00:56:21,012
No, but I, I, I think, I think that's wise.

1233
00:56:21,012 --> 00:56:23,031
I think that's, um, that's a good way.

1234
00:56:23,031 --> 00:56:25,582
I mean, in the nonprofit side, I've always been of

1235
00:56:25,582 --> 00:56:28,442
the opinion, always ask for free first if you can.

1236
00:56:28,442 --> 00:56:28,871
Absolutely.

1237
00:56:29,261 --> 00:56:30,332
You know, ask for it.

1238
00:56:30,332 --> 00:56:30,361
Mm-hmm.

1239
00:56:30,361 --> 00:56:31,242
It never hurts.

1240
00:56:31,242 --> 00:56:32,651
You know, can we do this in kind?

1241
00:56:32,651 --> 00:56:34,891
Can you do this as a donation?

1242
00:56:34,891 --> 00:56:36,352
You know, we'll make it worth your time.

1243
00:56:36,352 --> 00:56:38,932
We'll help you write it off as goodwill on your books.

1244
00:56:38,932 --> 00:56:40,442
Whatever you need, we're, we're here.

1245
00:56:40,552 --> 00:56:41,871
We're a nonprofit, so.

1246
00:56:42,162 --> 00:56:45,141
I've, I've got a, I was on the board of a nonprofit that had an auction.

1247
00:56:45,412 --> 00:56:45,442
Mm-hmm.

1248
00:56:45,651 --> 00:56:47,932
And they always were looking for auction items.

1249
00:56:48,421 --> 00:56:50,121
And I also have a friend that owns a liquor store.

1250
00:56:50,891 --> 00:56:53,092
And so I would call my friend Lynn at the liquor store, and I'd

1251
00:56:53,092 --> 00:56:56,081
say, "What you got that's not selling?" And she'd go, "Oh my gosh.

1252
00:56:56,182 --> 00:56:58,231
Is it that time of year again?" I said, "Yes, it is."

1253
00:56:58,231 --> 00:57:00,742
It is, it is the annual luncheon of the nonprofit.

1254
00:57:00,992 --> 00:57:03,591
And she'd go, "Yeah, I've got two or three things." Well, they're thrilled.

1255
00:57:03,841 --> 00:57:09,062
The nonprofit's thrilled because they now get to sell whatever this is

1256
00:57:09,062 --> 00:57:12,052
that, that, that… And it can't be something that's completely undesirable.

1257
00:57:12,052 --> 00:57:15,652
I mean, my friend, my liquor store friend is not, you know, crazy that way.

1258
00:57:16,032 --> 00:57:18,042
But she's like, "Yeah, I haven't been able to move this."

1259
00:57:18,251 --> 00:57:20,392
So it's kind of a win-win for both of them.

1260
00:57:20,562 --> 00:57:22,792
But I know her, and I can go ask for that.

1261
00:57:22,792 --> 00:57:24,402
I say, "This is an organization I support.

1262
00:57:24,751 --> 00:57:27,292
Would you be willing to donate something?" And she's

1263
00:57:27,292 --> 00:57:29,602
like, "I'll donate something that's not moving." So it,

1264
00:57:29,821 --> 00:57:31,911
it, you know, that's not always the best way to do it.

1265
00:57:31,911 --> 00:57:34,481
But it, it was just kind of fun to think about, about how

1266
00:57:34,481 --> 00:57:38,202
that process kinda works, and it's a win-win for, for her.

1267
00:57:38,402 --> 00:57:38,461
Yeah.

1268
00:57:38,492 --> 00:57:41,492
But now, if you went to her and said, "Can you give us, um,

1269
00:57:41,492 --> 00:57:44,551
cash?" She's probably, "No, I'm, I can't be in the business of

1270
00:57:44,551 --> 00:57:48,042
giving cash to every nonprofit that walks by," or, "I can't.

1271
00:57:48,321 --> 00:57:50,812
I, I just have to plan better than that," or,

1272
00:57:50,812 --> 00:57:52,731
"I can't do something different," or whatever.

1273
00:57:52,762 --> 00:57:55,251
But this is something that she's able to do, and I

1274
00:57:55,251 --> 00:57:57,692
know that, so I'm able to go back and ask for it.

1275
00:57:57,732 --> 00:57:57,821
Nice.

1276
00:57:58,281 --> 00:58:00,601
And, uh, and it's, and it's win-win for her 'cause she gets to move

1277
00:58:00,601 --> 00:58:04,302
some inventory out that, that she can't, that is not selling well.

1278
00:58:04,592 --> 00:58:07,241
And I'm sure get her logo on something somewhere- Yes … as well.

1279
00:58:07,281 --> 00:58:07,482
Yes.

1280
00:58:07,482 --> 00:58:07,552
And all

1281
00:58:07,552 --> 00:58:07,781
that.

1282
00:58:07,821 --> 00:58:08,592
It's always a benefit.

1283
00:58:08,902 --> 00:58:09,512
Always a benefit.

1284
00:58:09,671 --> 00:58:09,741
So.

1285
00:58:09,741 --> 00:58:10,232
That's great.

1286
00:58:10,612 --> 00:58:13,931
Um, well, Mary, as we wrap up, I mean, this is We Built This Brand.

1287
00:58:13,931 --> 00:58:16,622
We're talking marketing and branding on the show.

1288
00:58:16,692 --> 00:58:19,531
And I always like to ask, like, what brand or

1289
00:58:19,531 --> 00:58:22,542
organization would you say you most admire right now?

1290
00:58:22,571 --> 00:58:25,272
Like, when you look at either your space professionally or just

1291
00:58:25,272 --> 00:58:27,862
your own personal life, like, what brand do you admire the most?

1292
00:58:27,862 --> 00:58:29,092
That's a great question.

1293
00:58:29,391 --> 00:58:33,622
Just to stay on theme of keeping it nonprofit, Charity Water.

1294
00:58:33,622 --> 00:58:33,652
Mm-hmm.

1295
00:58:34,302 --> 00:58:35,641
Have you heard of Charity Water?

1296
00:58:35,821 --> 00:58:36,302
I feel like I have.

1297
00:58:36,302 --> 00:58:41,561
It's, it's an international organization, and they do a really good job.

1298
00:58:41,872 --> 00:58:44,732
First of all, you hear their name, and you immediately know what they do.

1299
00:58:45,052 --> 00:58:45,592
What do they do?

1300
00:58:45,811 --> 00:58:47,162
Water, as a charity.

1301
00:58:47,402 --> 00:58:50,701
The transparency, I'm not sure if they still do this, but it

1302
00:58:50,701 --> 00:58:54,402
used to be that if you donated, it went to a specific project.

1303
00:58:54,631 --> 00:58:56,522
Mm. And you could follow that project all the way through

1304
00:58:56,711 --> 00:58:59,302
and, and know how your impact was actually helping.

1305
00:58:59,621 --> 00:59:02,061
The other thing they do is they have actually a separate

1306
00:59:02,701 --> 00:59:06,963
organization that- raises money for their infrastructure.

1307
00:59:07,444 --> 00:59:13,583
So 100% of what they raise goes directly to funding water availability.

1308
00:59:13,833 --> 00:59:18,014
And that split is, is a real interesting model that a few more nonprofits

1309
00:59:18,014 --> 00:59:21,503
are starting to do because they like being able to say 100% of what

1310
00:59:21,503 --> 00:59:24,734
we, of what you're giving us goes directly to the mission, 'cause of

1311
00:59:24,734 --> 00:59:29,244
all the, uh, things in the news about nonprofits that are not that way.

1312
00:59:29,613 --> 00:59:33,564
And so that, that's one that I've, that I've really, uh, been impressed with.

1313
00:59:33,564 --> 00:59:36,154
Another big international one that's kind of in the same

1314
00:59:36,533 --> 00:59:39,953
similar space is, is I think it's called Heifer International.

1315
00:59:40,463 --> 00:59:45,174
And Heifer because of cows, and I think they used to give cows to

1316
00:59:45,213 --> 00:59:49,273
poor families in, in third world countries, and just the gift of

1317
00:59:49,273 --> 00:59:53,703
that cow provided nutrition, and then they could have calves and,

1318
00:59:53,794 --> 00:59:57,463
and move on and, and, um, and I think they do a lot with goats now.

1319
00:59:57,463 --> 00:59:59,703
I, I'm just learning about them internationally.

1320
01:00:00,273 --> 01:00:02,553
I, I love to look at the big international ones to see

1321
01:00:02,553 --> 01:00:05,854
what they're doing and then try to i- incorporate that back

1322
01:00:05,913 --> 01:00:08,303
in on a much smaller scale to what's happening locally.

1323
01:00:08,303 --> 01:00:11,404
But those would be two that I really think have kinda hit the nail

1324
01:00:11,404 --> 01:00:14,283
on the head, 'cause you know what they're doing, and they do it very

1325
01:00:14,283 --> 01:00:20,573
transparently, and, and the way they handle the funding is, is very amenable

1326
01:00:20,654 --> 01:00:23,734
to most people, especially when you're talking about money going overseas

1327
01:00:24,523 --> 01:00:26,654
Well, I like what you said about Charity Water, because

1328
01:00:26,654 --> 01:00:30,633
like that to me is what makes a, like any good product

1329
01:00:30,834 --> 01:00:33,464
really worth it is like you know where your money's going.

1330
01:00:33,464 --> 01:00:33,504
Mm-hmm.

1331
01:00:33,893 --> 01:00:35,454
Like at the end of the day, you can follow the

1332
01:00:35,454 --> 01:00:37,624
money trail- Mm-hmm … and see where it goes.

1333
01:00:37,624 --> 01:00:39,624
And it also gives you buy-in for the future as well.

1334
01:00:39,664 --> 01:00:42,883
If you've got something you're passionate about or something like that,

1335
01:00:42,883 --> 01:00:46,944
like, you know, I think back to, this is so silly, but I think back to

1336
01:00:46,944 --> 01:00:50,434
like, you know, going to Christian church concerts back in the day, and

1337
01:00:50,434 --> 01:00:53,873
they'd be like, "Well, we're, you know, Child Voice International- Right

1338
01:00:53,873 --> 01:00:55,674
or one of these organizations, you know?

1339
01:00:56,043 --> 01:00:59,453
They're great organizations, and you go and you see what they do.

1340
01:00:59,723 --> 01:01:03,223
But you know, if you go and sponsor a child, you get a picture of the child.

1341
01:01:03,354 --> 01:01:03,484
Right, right.

1342
01:01:03,484 --> 01:01:05,843
And actually now that I'm saying that out loud, I'm just

1343
01:01:06,214 --> 01:01:10,084
flashback to college, I actually photographed, actually went

1344
01:01:10,084 --> 01:01:13,633
on a mission trip and did photos of the children at one point.

1345
01:01:13,913 --> 01:01:16,494
So I've actually got to meet the children that got supported-

1346
01:01:16,494 --> 01:01:19,424
Mm-hmm … and were doing those things, and it's just really neat

1347
01:01:19,424 --> 01:01:21,593
to see that full circle now that I'm saying this all out loud.

1348
01:01:21,924 --> 01:01:25,253
But it's, it is neat that like anytime you do that,

1349
01:01:25,253 --> 01:01:27,944
you have a physical reason why you're doing it.

1350
01:01:28,413 --> 01:01:32,534
And I think that that, that's just one of the, one of the things that's really

1351
01:01:32,534 --> 01:01:36,254
neat about those types of organizations is you, you, you know why you're there.

1352
01:01:36,593 --> 01:01:39,714
I think really any nonprofit that can point back to exactly what they're

1353
01:01:39,714 --> 01:01:42,983
doing and- Mm-hmm … anytime you're giving money, you're, you know what

1354
01:01:42,983 --> 01:01:47,913
the impact is beyond a rubber chicken dinner- Right … so to speak.

1355
01:01:47,913 --> 01:01:49,364
Oh, I use that a lot.

1356
01:01:49,394 --> 01:01:49,794
Yes.

1357
01:01:49,794 --> 01:01:53,004
You know, the rubber chicken dinners where you have one person get up and talk.

1358
01:01:53,004 --> 01:01:56,123
Sometimes those talks can be very powerful- Mm-hmm … and very impactful.

1359
01:01:56,123 --> 01:01:58,544
Other times you just watch a video and you go, "Oh, neat."

1360
01:01:58,894 --> 01:01:59,144
Yeah.

1361
01:01:59,343 --> 01:01:59,724
Cool.

1362
01:01:59,843 --> 01:02:00,114
Great.

1363
01:02:00,324 --> 01:02:01,133
When's dessert?

1364
01:02:01,413 --> 01:02:02,373
Yeah, exactly.

1365
01:02:03,424 --> 01:02:07,623
So yeah, I've joked with some of my friend, uh, some of my clients that, who

1366
01:02:07,623 --> 01:02:10,913
are also friends, that Knoxville doesn't need another rubber chicken dinner.

1367
01:02:11,093 --> 01:02:14,174
And I'm not sure we need another 5K or another golf tournament, but,

1368
01:02:14,303 --> 01:02:18,544
but- … I, I said, you know, look, if you're gonna do an event, do an

1369
01:02:18,544 --> 01:02:23,583
event that is on mission to whatever extent that can be, and make it unique.

1370
01:02:23,773 --> 01:02:23,803
Mm-hmm.

1371
01:02:24,254 --> 01:02:30,074
And try to make it so attractive and so amazing that people

1372
01:02:30,074 --> 01:02:32,443
wanna come to it even if they didn't know what it supported.

1373
01:02:32,814 --> 01:02:34,363
And that's, I call that a super event.

1374
01:02:34,643 --> 01:02:34,704
Yeah.

1375
01:02:34,984 --> 01:02:36,764
And trying to make an event that's gonna

1376
01:02:36,764 --> 01:02:39,533
become a super event will make it sustainable.

1377
01:02:39,624 --> 01:02:41,074
And, and there are a few of those in town.

1378
01:02:41,104 --> 01:02:43,154
There are a few super events in town that, that really

1379
01:02:43,154 --> 01:02:45,744
do well, and they don't even have to be the high dollar

1380
01:02:45,744 --> 01:02:50,663
events, they're just very sought after and well run events.

1381
01:02:50,734 --> 01:02:52,404
And they're consistent, and they raise a lot

1382
01:02:52,404 --> 01:02:54,143
of money, and they, and they do a lot of good.

1383
01:02:54,564 --> 01:02:57,913
And I said, "Just shoot for that." I had a nonprofit one time that

1384
01:02:58,163 --> 01:03:00,374
was like, "Oh, we're gonna do this big dinner." I'm like, "You're

1385
01:03:00,374 --> 01:03:05,653
in the hunger space." Do you really want to bring your donors in

1386
01:03:05,683 --> 01:03:10,474
and feed them a seven-course meal when you're in the hunger space?

1387
01:03:10,474 --> 01:03:12,304
I said, "Let's think about those optics for a second." Yeah.

1388
01:03:12,944 --> 01:03:14,383
What, what, how is that gonna look?

1389
01:03:14,474 --> 01:03:16,673
Maybe we need to do a dance instead.

1390
01:03:17,094 --> 01:03:17,423
Um-

1391
01:03:17,663 --> 01:03:18,704
That's a good point.

1392
01:03:18,733 --> 01:03:18,794
Yeah.

1393
01:03:18,983 --> 01:03:21,854
So, uh, uh, looking at the optics of what you're doing, and

1394
01:03:21,854 --> 01:03:24,594
looking at, uh, and trying to keep it on mission to an extent.

1395
01:03:24,594 --> 01:03:27,493
I'm not saying everybody needs to go, you know, go fast for the evening.

1396
01:03:27,493 --> 01:03:28,464
That, that's not the point.

1397
01:03:28,464 --> 01:03:28,553
Right.

1398
01:03:28,833 --> 01:03:34,564
But, um, if you're serving a, a certain population that is… I, I had

1399
01:03:34,564 --> 01:03:39,053
a organization that was, uh, working with adults with developmental

1400
01:03:39,053 --> 01:03:41,963
disabil- disabilities, intellectual and developmental disabilities.

1401
01:03:42,404 --> 01:03:48,224
I'm like, what if we had a dinner in the place where you

1402
01:03:48,224 --> 01:03:52,073
serve these people, and to the, to their availability, a- and

1403
01:03:52,073 --> 01:03:55,594
they're a- available to do this, that they could help serve.

1404
01:03:55,924 --> 01:03:59,294
Mm. So now you're seeing… They could, they could take tickets.

1405
01:03:59,294 --> 01:04:01,373
They could serve, pass the food.

1406
01:04:01,373 --> 01:04:04,474
They could do… Um, not to exploit these individuals in any way.

1407
01:04:04,474 --> 01:04:05,463
And I said, "We gotta check that." Right.

1408
01:04:05,463 --> 01:04:07,574
"We gotta make sure we're not doing anything like that."

1409
01:04:07,994 --> 01:04:11,134
But is this a way that, that, so that the people that come

1410
01:04:11,454 --> 01:04:14,553
can actually see the individuals that are being helped?

1411
01:04:15,113 --> 01:04:15,144
Mm-hmm.

1412
01:04:15,144 --> 01:04:17,854
And in this particular case, it was a work-related thing.

1413
01:04:17,854 --> 01:04:18,604
I said, "You pay them.

1414
01:04:18,994 --> 01:04:22,693
You pay them to come and do this, so they're getting compensated for coming

1415
01:04:22,693 --> 01:04:26,373
and doing it." And I said, "That to me, would be just a wonderful experience,"

1416
01:04:26,373 --> 01:04:28,604
because I've met some of these individuals, and they're great people.

1417
01:04:29,013 --> 01:04:32,324
So what if we brought, um, our donors in to see them?

1418
01:04:32,954 --> 01:04:35,324
And, and not just to see them, but to see the workspace,

1419
01:04:35,324 --> 01:04:37,754
and to see what they're doing, and now it's very on-mission.

1420
01:04:38,134 --> 01:04:40,464
And then we're gonna do something really fun and cool so that

1421
01:04:40,464 --> 01:04:43,413
it becomes a super event, and everybody wants to come and do it.

1422
01:04:43,924 --> 01:04:47,153
Those are wise observations of the space.

1423
01:04:47,223 --> 01:04:50,134
It's just such a, um, challenge.

1424
01:04:50,134 --> 01:04:51,674
I could, I could tell you more, but

1425
01:04:53,763 --> 01:04:55,303
that's a conversation for another time.

1426
01:04:55,613 --> 01:04:57,394
But Mary, thank you so much for coming in today.

1427
01:04:57,394 --> 01:04:57,664
Well, thank

1428
01:04:57,664 --> 01:04:58,474
you for having me.

1429
01:04:58,474 --> 01:04:59,573
It has been awesome talking

1430
01:04:59,573 --> 01:04:59,963
to you.

1431
01:05:00,004 --> 01:05:03,134
I, I, I, I am not at a loss for words, so I

1432
01:05:03,134 --> 01:05:06,374
appreciate you, you, uh, accommodating me today, so.

1433
01:05:06,624 --> 01:05:10,963
Well, I was, so … No, but in… I'm just kidding.

1434
01:05:10,994 --> 01:05:12,893
But again, thank you so much.

1435
01:05:12,934 --> 01:05:14,014
Where can people find you?

1436
01:05:14,014 --> 01:05:15,973
Where can people connect with Leafspring?

1437
01:05:16,383 --> 01:05:17,744
Leafspringconsulting.com.

1438
01:05:18,784 --> 01:05:19,203
Awesome.

1439
01:05:19,203 --> 01:05:20,614
Well, we're, we're looking forward to it, and-

1440
01:05:20,614 --> 01:05:20,983
Thank you

1441
01:05:21,284 --> 01:05:22,674
…
thank you for being on the podcast.

1442
01:05:22,674 --> 01:05:23,483
Thank you for having me.

1443
01:05:23,744 --> 01:05:24,303
Absolutely.

1444
01:05:25,674 --> 01:05:28,074
Thanks for checking out this episode of We Built This Brand.

1445
01:05:28,343 --> 01:05:31,054
Don't forget to like and subscribe on your player of choice.

1446
01:05:31,144 --> 01:05:34,863
You can also keep up with the podcast on webuiltthisbrand.com.

1447
01:05:35,284 --> 01:05:39,133
If you liked this episode, please give the podcast a five-star review, and make

1448
01:05:39,133 --> 01:05:43,602
sure to tell all your friends about it so we can continue to build this brand.